Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume X, Pages 72-79, Tuesday 27th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
IRENA [sic] KOUPPARIS:
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Mrs. Koupparis, do you get on in
English? A. Very little; I understand a little.
Q. Your language is Greek? A. Yes.
Q. Would you rather give your evidence in Greek? A. I
cannot - is there somebody else to explain to me? (The
interpreter entered the witness box)
Q. Do you understand what I am saying to you? A. Yes.
Q. Would you rather give your evidence in your own language, in
Greek? A. Yes.
(The witness was sworn through the interpreter)
EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Mrs. Koupparis, do not try to give
evidence in English; just listen to the lady. A. All right,
thank you very much, okay.
MR. BECKMAN: So that your Lordship is aware, for the earlier
part of the trial Mrs. Koupparis was in the gallery with the
knowledge of my learned friend. I am told that position.
(To the witness): Mrs. Koupparis, would you listen to my
questions and in due course listen to this gentleman's
questions, but address your answers to those ladies and
gentlemen (indicating). What is your full name?
A. Irena [sic] Koupparis.
Q. What is your address? A. No. 12 Strickland Court, Fenwick
Road, Peckham Rise, SE15.
Q. Are you the mother of --- A. I am the mother, yes.
Q. Have you two other sons, Andre and Jason, who we have just
seen give evidence? A. Yes.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: I think I would rather it was
translated.
MR. BECKMAN: Did your husband die some 15 years ago? A. Yes.
Q. Did you work previously as a dress finisher but have not
worked for many years? A. Yes.
Q. Do you live with Andre and Jason in a council flat in
Peckham? A. Yes.
Q. Had you used to live in Woolwich? A. Yes.
Q. Did Panos live with you until his marriage about some ten
years ago? A. Yes.
Q. Are you a very close and warm family or a close family?
A. Very close.
Q. Who looked after the family after your husband died?
A. My son Panos.
Q. Who took you on holiday? A. Everywhere, my son Panos.
Q. When he was in London did he work hard or not? A. Yes, he
was working very hard; he was looking after our family.
Q. We know that he went in 1983 to Cyprus. A. Yes.
Q. Did he write you a letter asking you to go for some holiday
in Cyprus? A. Yes.
Q. Did you not hear from him for quite a while after that?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately when was that? A. Approximately three or
four months afterwards; I am not sure exactly but I think
like that. I am not sure exactly, but that is the period of
time.
Q. Do not tell us what he told you, but Andre your son went to
Cyprus, did he not? A. I am sorry, I did not follow.
Q. Your son Andre went to Cyprus? A. Yes, I sent him to go
Cyprus because I wanted to see what was happening to my son.
Q. Andre went to Cyprus. Do not tell us anything that you said
to Andre or Andre said to you - we are not allowed to hear
it, it is all hearsay. Just answer this: Andre went to
Cyprus? A. Yes.
Q. Answer this "Yes" or "No", when Andre came back from Cyprus
did he speak to you? A. Yes.
Q. As a result of that did you do something? A. I thought ---
Q. Did you go somewhere after that? A. Yes, I went to Cyprus.
Q. About when did you arrive in Cyprus? A. I don't know
exactly the date because I do not know how to read quick in
English.
Q. Approximately. A. After Andre arrived, approximately two
or three months.
Q. Who met you at the airport in Cyprus? A. My son Panos.
Q. When he picked you up was he lively or quiet? A. Well, he
said, "Hello Mama", he kissed me. He kissed me, he said,
"Hello Mama, how is my brothers?" He said to me - he asked
me, "How is my brother Jason?" and after I sat in his car we
went to his house and he was very quiet inside the car.
Q. Was that normal for him? A. No, I didn't like it because
my son previously was absolutely different.
Q. Did that give you cause for concern? A. No.
Q. Did you stay with your son for some four weeks in Nicosia?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he up a lot or did he stay in bed a lot? A. In bed.
Q. Did he take you out very much? A. He would get up for a
little bit then he would say, "I am sorry, Mama, I have to go
and lie down again".
Q. Did you see him take any tablets? A. I can see him taking
approximately 15 tablets a day.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Fifteen or 50? A. Fifteen, different
colours.
THE INTERPRETER: Fifteen of different colours.
MR. BECKMAN: Did you say to him something about that? A. Yes,
I was very upset about it and I told him, "This tablet may
harm you".
Q. Did he tell you anything about why he was taking them?
A. He told me, "I have to take these tablets because it is
according to the advice of the doctor".
Q. Did you know which doctors he had seen? A. Dr. Sophocleous
and Dr. Evdokas.
Q. Who was it that used to pick up the tablets for him from the
chemist? A. My daughter-in-law; many times my daughter-in-
law was collecting the tablets.
Q. Did you ask him to come back to London? A. Yes, I asked
him to come back to London. He said, "My wife is not coming
and I love my wife and my child, and therefore I cannot leave
them, cannot go away".
Q. Were there problems as a result of this in the marriage, as
far as you could see, or not? A. They did not have any
problems at all, they are a very happily married couple.
Q. Were they still happy when he was like this in Cyprus?
A. It did not show to me when I was near to them that they
had any major problems.
Q. Did you come back to London? A. Yes, I turned back to
London.
Q. Did he come to London later? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he stay in a hotel, I believe the Inter Continental?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he invite you for dinner? A. Yes, he invited us for
dinner but he only himself had dinner, and to us he offered
drinks.
Q. Did he then stay with you in his room and have dinner and
offer you nothing? A. Only drinks.
Q. Was that typical of him, or not? A. Yes, it was very
unusual because he never sat alone to eat and not offer
anything to us.
Q. What about his state of dress; was that different? A. Yes,
he came to dinner with a tracksuit in spite of the fact he
was also very smartly dressed. He never wore clothes which
were not of a certain quality and appropriate for the
occasion.
Q. So he was differently dressed? A. Very different.
Q. When he was there did you see him taking drugs, or not?
A. When?
Q. When he was in London. A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever say he should see a doctor? A. Yes, I did
advise him to see a doctor but he do not take any notice of
me.
Q. Where did he keep his tablets? A. Inside my bedroom. I
still have some of the tablets left.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: His ---? A. My bedroom.
MR. BECKMAN: Would you repeat that because everyone here heard
something different. A. Inside my bedroom, my bedroom.
Q. Did he ever mention the possibility of himself involved on
television? A. He said - what kind of involvement on
television?
Q. Did he ever suggest he might be on television? A. Yes, he
did.
Q. As what? A. It would appear - he told me that he would
appear on television, that he would appear on the television
as President of Cyprus.
Q. Did he ever give you any other name, tell you who he was?
A. He told to me Captain Nemo.
Q. Did he tell you he had marriage plans? A. Yes.
Q. What was that? A. Yes, he told me that he would like to
get married to many women and have many babies.
Q. Was that serious or a joke? A. I took it as a joke, of
course.
Q. You were not concerned about it? A. It appeared to me to
be a very strange statement from my son, who was always very
respectable.
Q. Did you find that he had regular sleeping habits and waking
up habits like most of us? A. Yes, his habits were
different.
Q. In what way were they different? A. He was not like - so
he was not what he was before.
Q. How did his sleeping habits vary? A. He was not sleeping
during the nights. Sometimes he was not sleeping during the
night at all. He was going up and down stairs, he was
switching on the television, radio; we were unable then to
sleep.
Q. Was he not like that before? A. No, never, never.
Q. Do you remember the occasion when he put some dirt or dust on
his hand? A. Yes, he was there with his bone in his hand -
so placed it on the television screen and on the wall and he
was also, you know, making his child do the same thing, which
is strange because he was always a very clean man.
Q. Have you see him recently? A. How late?
Q. Have you been seeing him over the last few months? A. I
did ask permission. The answer was that for the present,
because he (inaudible) all tablets he is much better now;
absolutely nothing wrong now. At home he see me, kiss me
say, "Hello Mama", because he is respectable for me all the
time.
MR. TEMPLE: I have no questions.
(The witness withdrew)
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