Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume X, Pages 23-53, Tuesday 27th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
MR. BECKMAN: Would your Lordship allow me a few moments so I can
put in hand the enquiries we discussed earlier, so I may be
of assistance to your Lordship at the end of the day?
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Are there any more witnesses?
MR. BECKMAN: There are more witnesses, but if I get the
enquiries going so I have the information in good time, it
would enable me to give assistance to your Lordship.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: What other witnesses do you have today?
MR. BECKMAN: I have Mrs. Koupparis, two brothers and Professor
West.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: I am not quite clear why we cannot get
on with the evidence.
MR. BECKMAN: My Lord, we can, but your Lordship wants assistance
later today. It will help the prosecution if I were able to
do that.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: That is a very short matter.
MR. BECKMAN: Yes, my Lord, but I have instructions in order to
see what I can do to assist and if I can ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: If there is any problem we can deal with
the discussion. We will go on with the evidence.
MR. BECKMAN: My Lord, my learned friend might have to call a
witness and he needs help.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: We will go on with the evidence now.
It is the evidence the jury want to hear.
MR. BECKMAN: Sobeit, my Lord.
ANDRE SYMEON KOUPPARIS: Sworn
Examined by Mr. Beckman
Q. What is your full name? A. Andre Symeon Koupparis.
Q. Where do you live? A. Twelve Strickland Court, Peckham,
SE15.
Q. I wonder if you would be kind enough - there are two things
we have to do: one is listen to my questions, to address the
answer to the most important people, the jury over there.
Secondly, would you also be kind enough to keep your voice
up? Your address? A. Twelve Strickland Court, Fenwick
Road, SE15.
Q. Is your brother Panos Koupparis? A. Yes, he is.
Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-five.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I am a sales person at
Rumbelow's Electrical.
Q. This is in Brixton, I believe? A. No, that was in
Burton's at Brixton. I now work in Peckham Rumbelow's. I
have changed jobs.
Q. Who do you live with at the address you told us about?
A. My mother and my younger brother, Jason.
Q. I think there is a 13 year gap between you and your brother
Panos? A. Yes.
Q. Have you and he lived together since - when did you last live
together? How old were you? A. I think round about 15 or
16.
Q. You were --- A. When we lived together as a family before
he got married?
Q. Yes. A. Oh ---
Q. You were about four years old, approximately? A. Yes.
Q. I think your father died 15 years ago? A. Yes.
Q. At that time you lived in Woolwich, in a council flat with
your mother and brother? A. Yes.
Q. Panos, the older brother, stayed in another flat?
A. That's right.
Q. Who looked after the family, that is maintain them, after
your father died? A. Panos did, my brother.
Q. Did you see him regularly then? A. Just after my brother
died (sic).
Q. He got married, we know that. Did you see him regularly
then after he got married? A. Yes, he stayed with us.
Q. Leaving aside anything else, was the marriage a happy one, as
far as you could tell? A. Yes.
Q. We know that Panos moved to Cyprus; when exactly did he move
to Cyprus? A. In 1976, I believe.
Q. Nineteen ---? A. Sorry, '86.
Q. Did you go and see him in Cyprus? A. Yes, I did.
Q. When did you go and see him in Cyprus? A. Actually, I
think I have messed up on the years I gave you.
MR. BECKMAN: You mean he went there in 1985 or 1984?
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Your brother said he went to Cyprus in
1986; that is six years ago. Do you agree with that or do
you disagree? A. I agree it was between '84 and '85.
MR. BECKMAN: In fact it was 1983, but the more important thing
is when did you go and stay with him in Cyprus? A. I went
in '86.
Q. What month in 1986 did you go? A. June.
Q. He had been there since 1983. Generally speaking, before
the summer of 1986 - before that period when he first moved
there in 1983, and so on, for a year or two years, whatever
it is - did he 'phone frequently? A. We did most of the
'phoning.
Q. You did? A. Yes, about once a week to check up how he was.
Q. Did he ever telephone back or write back? A. Not from
what I remember, no.
Q. Before you went out in June or July, was there any change as
far as you were concerned in communication? A. Yes, a big
change.
Q. What was the change in communication? A. How do you mean
"communication? The way he spoke?
Q. What was the change? You said there was a change before
you went to see him; what change were you aware of? A. I
was aware he was quiet.
Q. Before you went out you would not have seen him? A. Sorry?
Q. You were living in England, he is living in Cyprus. He is
living in Cyprus from 1983 onwards; you had not gone to see
him until June or July 1986? A. Yes.
Q. Before you went out to see him, were you aware of any change
in him? A. No.
Q. When you went out to see him, what airport did you arrive at?
A. Larnaca.
Q. Was that early in the morning? A. It was, the flight
landed about four o'clock in the morning.
Q. Who collected you? A. Panos did.
Q. When he first picked you up was he talkative, or not? A. I
had expected him to be a little more talkative, but he was
average talkative. He was fairly talkative not very much.
He was more - not very talkative considering he hadn't seen
me for three or four years. I had expected him to talk more;
so no, he wasn't, no.
Q. Is this a fair way of putting it: he was quieter than
before, putting it no higher? A. Yes, that's right.
Q. When you got back to the house did he start speaking more?
A. No, he became even quieter.
Q. Did you ask him about that? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did he say to you by way of reply? A. Can I have a
glass of water please?
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Are you feeling all right? A. I am
feeling a little dizzy.
Q. Sit down and you will be given a glass of water. (Handed to
the witness) It is not at all easy giving evidence. Are
you not feeling well? A. I am feeling a little flushed.
Q. Do you want me to stop for a while? A. If you don't mind.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: We will stop until five past twelve.
(The trial was adjourned for a short time)
ANDRE SIMEON KOUPPARIS: Recalled
Further examined by Mr. Beckman
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Are you sure that you are feeling all
right? A. Yes.
Q. If you want to sit down you may do so. A. Yes.
Q. You want to give your evidence now? A. Yes.
MR. BECKMAN: Mr. Koupparis, the fact that you may get the odd
date wrong does not matter, so just relax the best you can.
Have you ever given evidence before? A. Never.
Q. Let us see if we can get on better. I wonder if I might help
you this way: if you can address the ladies and gentlemen of
the jury and listen to our questions, but with all due
respect keep your voice up but otherwise ignore us; they are
the important people - I think we were talking about you
getting in the car; he picked you up early in the morning.
A. Yes.
Q. You got in the car with him; you found he was quieter than
before. A. Yes.
Q. When you got back to the flat in Nicosia he was even more
quiet. Then I was asking you about what was said when we
adjourned. A. Yes.
Q. If I go too fast or you need to sit down do not hesitate.
Did you ask him if there was anything wrong with him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did he say? A. He said he got up early in the morning
and that he was tired.
Q. Did he mention anything else about how he felt? A. No.
Q. Did Kiki say anything to him? A. She told him something
like she had enough; "It's time we told Andre the truth".
Q. Did he then tell you about what he felt; what his condition
was? A. He told me that since he set foot in Cyprus all
his plans have gone wrong; he has had no money; Kiki, his
wife, has been working, has been mainly the sole breadwinner,
and that he felt a bit of depression.
Q. Did he tell you whether or not he had been seeing a doctor?
A. Yes, he had eventually - had got to telling me that.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Can you remember which month it was, or
about when in the summer of 1986? A. Yes, I do because
from my work I took a holiday from June 6th to the 20th, or
something like that.
Q. Did he tell you why he had been seeing a doctor? A. I
cannot remember.
Q. Was it anything else other than the depression, as far as you
knew? If you do not know say so. A. Well, I don't know.
Q. During the time you saw him, did he ever take any pills?
A. Yes, he took kind of pills to help his emotions, like one
to put him to sleep, one to help him concentrate. That is
what he told me.
Q. Was he taking many pills? A. Yes, he was.
Q. How often, how many, what type? Can you give us an idea?
A. They were small pills of different colours. He took them
in the morning, took them after lunch, before he went to bed,
in quite heavy quantities.
Q. So did he sleep much? A. Yes, he did a lot of sleep during
the day. He tried to get as much sleep as he could.
Q. Did you find him easy to get on with? A. Well, not very
easy to get on with, although there wasn't disputes or
arguments or anything, but he was very closed in on himself.
Q. Had he been like that before? A. No.
Q. Did he have enthusiasm? A. He lacked a lot of enthusiasm.
Q. Was he an enthusiastic person before? A. Yes.
Q. Was there an occasion when you were going to go up into the
mountains to a lodge for a holiday? A. Yes.
Q. Was Panos prepared to go? A. He wasn't reluctant, no, but
he didn't not want to go, but he went and he didn't put much
enthusiasm when we got there into it. He wanted to stay out
of the shade and he didn't want to get sunburnt. He would
brood about what he had.
Q. Was he like that before? A. No, he would be very enthus-
iastic about anything - good time and would make something of
it normally.
Q. He had told you about the depression. Did you find him
depressed yourself, or not? A. Yes.
Q. Before you left did he say anything to you about whether he
wanted to stay in Cyprus or no? A. No, he wanted to return
back to England where he felt it was a fairer country to live
in, where business could prosper for him.
Q. His being depressed and acting like he did, did it have any
effect on your holiday? A. Yes, because there was times
when we were at the lodge and he let his wife go down to the
beach with me on his own, and I would like him to be more
with us, though he would stay at home to sleep; something
like that.
Q. Did he apologise before you left? A. He did. Upon leaving
he apologised and said to me, "If I had been feeling a little
better" - "Sorry I ruined your holiday", and things like
that.
Q. When he had been in London earlier had you seen any of this
depression or anything of that sort? A. No, he was full
of enthusiasm when - he was a changed person.
Q. We know he came to London in 1987: did he come by himself?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When he first arrived he stayed at the Inter Continental
Hotel, did he not? A. Yes.
Q. Did he ask you to meet him there? A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did he in fact telephone you at work? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to the Inter Continental Hotel, together with
Jason and your mother? A. Yes.
Q. When you went there did you see him? What was he wearing?
A. He was wearing grey track suit trousers and a jog top
with the hood done up at the chin, so very casual jogging
type wear.
Q. Had he shaved? A. No, he was unshaven.
Q. Had you seen him wearing that sort of thing before?
A. No.
Q. Was it normal or abnormal for him? A. Very abnormal.
Q. What about shaving? A. In public, especially if he was
staying in a hotel of that sort, he would never leave his
room unshaven normally.
Q. Was that normal or abnormal? A. Very abnormal.
Q. Was there any difference in his speech? A. Yes, he spoke
as if he was like a 21 year old teenager, with flashy words
like "This is cool" and, you know.
Q. Did he talk much? A. Yes, he spoke a lot. He spoke very
fast and ---
Q. Had he ever been like that before? A. No, he has always
been laid back in his speech, explaining things slowly and
accurately.
Q. Did you see any occasion when he was aggressive? A. Well,
that same night there was an incident where we were crossing
the road to go out of the Inter Continental Hotel.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: "That same night"; I am not sure whether
you know what the date was. A. Well, the night I am saying
for example, the night we met him.
Q. Can you help us because it may or may not be important: he
arrived on 26th March, we believe. How long after that was
it you saw him? A. It was probably two days later or, you
know.
Q. "That same night" - go on. A. We were just crossing the
road and a cab, a taxi, cut round the corner a bit too fast -
well, it wasn't fast, a bit too sharp - and he hit out with
the back of his hand and started swearing at the cab driver
that he almost run him over.
Q. Did he do that before? A. Before he might have been angry
but I don't think he would have been swearing at the cab
after, things like that.
Q. Did he invite you to the hotel at any time? A. Yes, he
did.
Q. Normally in this situation would he take you out for dinner?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he that evening? A. Only downstairs for drinks, like a
Coke each or something.
Q. Did something unusual happen in relation to a meal that
evening? A. I cannot remember.
Q. Did you eat with him that evening? A. The same evening
that I met him at the hotel? No, I don't - no.
Q. Did he eat? A. He ate in his room.
Q. Were you there? A. Yes.
Q. What did he do? He ordered a meal for himself? A. He
ordered like a complete Cordon Bleu menu to his room and he
ate it himself.
Q. Whilst you were in the room? A. Yes, and my mother and
Jason.
Q. Whilst he was eating did he offer you any food? A. No.
Q. Was that normal for him? A. No, he would never do that; he
would have ordered all of us something if he was in his
normal state.
Q. How unusual did you find that? A. That wasn't like him at
all, so it was very unusual.
Q. Did he spend money at that time? You went out with him -
not that evening, but you went out with him afterwards during
the time he was staying there? A. Yes.
Q. Did he spend money? A. Yes, he spent lots of money.
Q. Where did he get it from? A. I don't know. He bought a
lot with him from Cyprus.
Q. Did he borrow any? A. I don't know. No - I don't know.
Q. When he went out to buy - do you remember an occasion he went
to Covent Garden? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recall him buying things in Covent Garden? A. Yes,
we went to Candlestick, a wax kind of place, where he bought
loads of candles and different (inaudible) things like that.
Q. Was that normal for him, that kind of buying? A. Not on
such kind of impulse. He wouldn't spend a day - just set out
for the day and buying things without thinking about it.
Q. It was impulse buying? A. Yes, he got up one day and
thought, "I will buy a load of candles to send to Cyprus and
sell" - very impulsive.
Q. Did he buy any other items? A. Not in the - he bought all
the candle stuff and went to a shop called Roy Horne Clothes
which had lots of army plastic clothing, and he thought that
would be a good idea because Cyprus you get - I don't know
what his reasons were because he said a lot of things and
kept changing his thought and he ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Not too fast because the poor shorthand
writer has to take it down. Can you speak slowly? If it is
important you must speak slower. He went shopping where
there was clothing and bought some of it? A. No, he asked
for catalogues.
Q. He did not buy anything there? A. Except for a set of -
he bought some sunglasses that could fold into a pouch, and
that was it.
MR. BECKMAN: Did he buy any clothing at all? A. Yes, he
bought a jump top with a zipper on the front.
Q. A jump top, made out of what? A. PVC material, plastic.
Q. Was it the sort of thing he normally buys? A. Not for his
own use, no. He would buy it casually, but not for the
reasons he bought it for.
Q. Did he go to a Filofax shop? A. Yes.
Q. What did he buy from there? A. He bought a Filofax with
all the bits that go with it - bought one or two, I cannot
remember.
Q. How many Filofaxes? A. I cannot remember the exact figure
at the moment.
Q. Did he go on one occasion to the shop where you worked,
namely Burton's? A. Yes, he did
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: About when are we talking now? A. We
are talking some time later.
Q. He was arrested on 14th May. How long before that was it?
A. Perhaps ten to twelve days prior.
MR. BECKMAN: When you went to the shop at Burton's how much -
do you know, did he buy any clothes? A. Yes, he bought
about five or six bags full of clothes.
Q. What sort of things did he buy? A. He bought a whole lot
of shirts and it is all multi colour, which he wouldn't
normally wear, sort of greens and yellow and pinks, and one
with purple and grey stripes; all sort of different colours.
He bought pink jumpers, casual trousers, suits Italian cut,
whereas normally he wears business type suits.
Q. Had he ever bought that sort of thing before? A. He does
buy clothes but not in such large quantities and not such
impulse basis.
Q. Did he buy the sort of things he normally wore? A. No.
Q. Is he normally conventionally dressed or flashily dressed?
A. Conventional.
Q. You went to St. Ives on one occasion and visited Cheddar
Gorge? A. Yes.
Q. Did he do any buying whilst he was down there? A. He
bought lots of stuff, like rocks from volcanoes - not
volcanoes, caves, sorry caves, like stalagmite, and things
like that.
Q. Did he buy in large quantities or small quantities?
A. Yes, large quantities.
Q. When you went out to clubs - did you go out to clubs with
him? A. Yes.
Q. Did he spend much money? A. He spent lots of money because
we went with "the posse" (with Jake, Barnaby and the girl)
one night to Brown's and he spent loads of money on food and
drink in there.
Q. Again, do not tell us about details because we have heard a
lot of them, but did he tell you about a lot of schemes he
had in mind? A. Yes, he would tell us about them, yes.
Q. Did they vary from time to time, the schemes? A. Yes,
each one was a new idea entirely, not related to any of the
others at all.
Q. You had seen him depressed before; how was he different - or
was he different on this occasion? A. Well, when he was -
when I saw him in Cyprus he didn't have any ideas, he didn't
know what to do with himself, whereas when he came over here
he had, you know, hundreds of ideas to do, so that was the
major difference. He didn't go out, didn't want to go out
when he was in Cyprus. I believe he put his mind on stop
taking pills and sleeping a lot over here. He was going out
and sleeping less.
Q. He seems the opposite, from what you said, the opposite of
depressed. A. Yes.
Q. As far as you were concerned, was that an improvement, this
completely opposite stage of enthusiasm, as opposed to
depression? To you was that an improvement or not? A. It
appeared as if it was an improvement, yes.
Q. Did you go to the Barbican security exhibition with him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When you went there, did he ask you to do something? A. He
asked me to go and gather as many leaflets as I could on
electronic communication devices, etcetera.
Q. With these leaflets, where did you put them? A. I put them
in a carrier bag on the floor.
Q. Again, not a lot of detail, but was there some idea about
converting a hotel into an AIDS clinic? A. Yes, there was.
Q. Where was that? A. I didn't know which hotel it was.
Q. Was there any attempt made to deal with it as a charity?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do in that connection on his behalf? A. We
went to Fleet Street to put some adverts in the Standard and
some other papers.
Q. That is some advertisement about AIDS in the papers?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you ever go to the Charity Commissioners' office?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do at the Charity Commissioners' office?
A. We went to register it - to register it as an official
charity.
Q. An official charity called ---? A. AIDS Anonymous.
Q. We have heard about it, you had a scheme for wheel clamping,
amongst other things? A. Yes, there was.
Q. The young people you told us about, he went around with, you
in fact met them a few times? A. Yes.
Q. What name did he use when he met these people? A. He got
them to call him Nemo.
Q. Anything in addition to Nemo, or just Nemo? A. No, they
only called him Nemo.
Q. What people did he get to call him Nemo? A. Do you want
the names?
Q. Yes. A. It was Jake, Barnaby, Charlotte, and I have
forgotten the other girl's name.
Q. The four young people we have seen. Anybody else did he get
to call him Nemo? A. There was a lady who was Marilyn
Monroe looked - Kay. Again, she often called asking for him
as Nemo.
Q. Do you remember her name? A. Yes.
Q. What was that? A. It was Kay.
Q. Can you help us as to this: when he arrived in England did
he say anything to you about his name, anything special?
A. Yes. Well, the first I heard that he was calling himself
Nemo was when he introduced himself to these kids, and I
asked him why he did this and he said - he sat me down and
said well, Nemo ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: A little slower: you asked him why he
called himself Nemo and he said ---? A. This means nobody
so he was like Mr. Nobody. Nobody knew what he was up to.
He got an air of mysticism.
MR. BECKMAN: Did he say anything about the use of the name Pan
or Panos? A. He has always called himself Pan and Panos to
the family. That is what we used as shorthand for Panos,
Pan. I would be called An for Andre.
Q. Did he say anything about no longer using it? A. I cannot
remember, but despite - even I would still have called
him ---
Q. Never mind. You cannot remember everything and I will not
ask or need to on that. Did you feel yourself - did you
feel, the family, over this - you must have discussed it
amongst yourselves - that he must have required a doctor?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Why is it that you did not get a doctor to him? A. Basically
because he was - he already had his own doctor in Cyprus and
we all viewed that this positiveness was his way of trying to
get himself improved, away from the depression when he was in
Cyprus.
Q. You knew he changed doctors? A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. As far as you were concerned, was the second doctor a better
doctor than the first? A. The second doctor was better,
yes.
Q. At any rate, though you felt he needed a doctor, for whatever
reasons you discussed, you did not get him one, in England
that is? A. No.
Q. You have seen him a bit more recently, have you not, since he
has been in prison? A. Yes.
Q. Is he now like he was in Cyprus, or is he better? In Cyprus
he was depressed. A. He is not depressed now.
Q. I presume prison has had some effect on him, it is not the
happiest place. A. That is right.
Q. But he is not depressed like he was in Cyprus? A. No.
Q. Can I ask you about the other thing and that is this: you
told us about him being enthusiastic, running around doing
all these crazy things and saying crazy things, talking about
crazy schemes; does he do that now? A. No, he has not
spoken of any of his crazy schemes.
Q. Is he different from what he was when you saw him going
around in London? A. Yes.
Q. As much as one is in prison anyway. A. Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. TEMPLE
Q. Have this bundle of documents in front of you please,
Mr. Koupparis (handed to the witness). I do not want you to
refer to it at the moment, I want to ask you this: if you
had been asked during the course of mid May 1987 whether
or not you had heard the name of Nemo, what would the
truthful answer be? A. I would have replied, "No".
Q. You have just told this jury upon your oath that you had
asked your brother why he called himself --- A. That's
right.
Q. When did that conversation take place? A. I'm sorry, you
are confusing me.
Q. Let us take it in stages. You have told this jury upon your
oath that you asked your brother why he called himself Nemo.
A. Yes.
Q. That was clearly and obviously before he was arrested?
A. That is right.
Q. Indeed, in your presence on a number of occasions he had
called himself Nemo. A. That's right, yes.
Q. I will ask you again, if you had been asked shortly after
your brother's arrest whether or not you had heard the name
of Nemo, what would the truthful answer be? A. It would
have been "Yes", I - yes.
Q. Would you look at page 73 of the document in front of you,
and so that the Court and jury can appreciate the position,
just look back to page 67. If you look at page 67 it
appears this was a record of interview between you and police
officers on 14th May 1987. A. That is right.
Q. This took place at Paddington Green Police Station?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you attempting to tell the truth during the course of
that interview? A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you want to assist the police in their enquiries?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you have any difficulty in understanding the question or
questions which were being put to you? A. No.
Q. Would you look at page 73 again, half way down the page.
Question: "Have you ever heard the name of Nemo?" What was
your reply? A. From this it says, "No".
Q. Would you like to see the original? A. No, that is why I
said first of all I would have said, "No", because I remember
that is what I said here.
Q. Let us pause to consider. You answered the question, "Have
you ever heard the name of Nemo?" You said "No". A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember being given the opportunity to check through
the answers and signing your answers at the end of each of
the answers? A. Yes, I do.
Q. What did you think was the purpose of being asked to sign at
the end of each answer? A. To verify that is what you
said.
Q. I will now ask you this question: why did you tell the
officers that you had not heard the name of Nemo? A. Well,
to me the name Nemo was a domestic name that I called my
brother Pan. I didn't think it had any connection with what
the police were holding him for at that time.
Q. Did you know what the police were holding him for at that
time? A. No, I didn't.
Q. How on earth can you come to a conclusion as to whether or
not it was relevant? A. I don't know.
Q. It was an out and out lie, was it not? A. Well, at that
time I didn't want to discuss with whoever was questioning
me what was going on within our home.
MR. TEMPLE: You were answering a lot of questions; you answered
questions over three interviews, Mr. Koupparis. I will ask
you once again - just take your time - why was it that you
chose to lie ---
MR. BECKMAN: Forgive me, he has not said he is lying, that is
your words.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: You had better ask him again.
MR. TEMPLE: Are you saying this was a mistaken answer? A. It
was a wrong answer.
Q. It was a lie; let us not beat about the bush, it was a lie.
A. Well, I was told by the officer I had the right to remain
silent so in order not to - because I didn't want to tell
people a lie, the police, what my broither decides to call
himself so I answered "No". I could have said, "I use my
right to remain silent" but I answered "No" for that
question.
Q. There are passages within the interview where you said in
effect that you wanted to preserve your right to silence.
A. Yes.
Q. If on this question you had said in effect, "I do not want to
answer", why did you not say, "I do not want to answer that
question, the question about Nemo"? (Pause) A. Well ---
Q. Let me suggest a reason: did you know a little bit more about
this enterprise of your brother's than you are prepared to
tell us? Had you seen your brother signing any docu-
mentation in the name of Nemo? A. No, not - no.
Q. Just think carefully: had you ever come across any
documentation at Strickland Court bearing the name Nemo or
mentioning the name Nemo? A. No, I cannot remember that.
Q. Had you ever heard the name Digsby? A. No, I hadn't.
Q. Or Wilkins? A. No.
Q. I want you to look at a document which we have - members of
the jury, it is your document page 159. (Handed to the
witness) Do you recognise the writing? A. Yes.
Q. Whose is it? A. It looks as if it is Kiki Koupparis.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Who? A. Mrs. Koupparis.
Q. She is known by you as Kiki? A. Yes, I call her Kiki for
short.
MR. TEMPLE: Do you remember being shown that document during
the course of your interview? A. About having the same
appearance?
Q. Yes. A. I may have done.
Q. Would you turn to page 89. Just before I come to ask you
about page 89, look at this further document. Do you see the
first document being handed up to you now? (Handed to the
witness) A. Yes.
Q. I just want to spell it out for the note: this is part of
our exhibit originally TK28. I am asking you to look at some
writing which appears to be in some brownish handwriting. I
want to ask you whose writing that is. A. I don't know.
Q. You do not know, is it Panos's? A. Certain characteristics
are like - "AIDS" is written in - "AIDS Anonymous", but the
rest of it - I do not see much of Panos's writing joined up,
only when he wrote in block.
Q. I am going to just take you through the question and answer
on this matter; I want to give you the opportunity to deal
with it. Would you look at 89: "Will you please look at
this other document" - and you are handed TK28 - "and tell me
again if you have seen it before and whose writing it is."
Answer: "The first page is Panos's joined up writing. He
does do a lot of printing." We are obviously taking it that
that answer refers to one of the two pages having joined up
writing. A. Excuse me one moment, I think I am on the
wrong page.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Page 89. A. I am on 98, getting my
"8" and "9" mixed up. (Pause) I have got it now. The one
which starts, "Will you please look at this"?
MR. TEMPLE: Yes, I will take it slowly. "Would you please look
at this other document" - and you are handed TK28. A.
Which is this one (indicating)?
Q. That is right - "and tell me again if you have seen it before
and whose writing it is". Answer: "The first page is
Panos's joined up writing. He does do a lot of printing."
Which document were you there saying was Panos's joined up
writing? There are only two which have joined up writing;
agreed? A. When I was arrested at Paddington I don't
recall seeing this one with (inaudible) on top.
Q. Are you saying you were not asked this question? A. I was
asked this question but maybe perhaps not with this document.
Q. Just concentrate your mind on the question if you can. Are
you saying that you think you were shown some other document?
A. Maybe, yes.
Q. Or is it a question of you telling a lie again? A. No, I
wouldn't tell a lie.
Q. What do you mean, you would not tell a lie? You are quite
capable of telling a lie; you admitted as much. A. That
was just - I didn't think the question - when it was asked,
that question - was any relevant to the gentleman asking it.
Q. Can you keep your voice up, Mr. Koupparis. Are you saying
with regard to this exchange - let us take it in stages. Do
you accept you made the answer, "The first page is Panos's
joined up writing. He does do a lot of printing"? Do you
accept you made the answer? A. No, when I said, "The first
page is Panos's joined up writing", I think I was shown two
pieces of paper
Q. You have within that exhibit four separate bits of paper; are
we agreed? A. Yes.
Q. Members of the jury, you have copied for your bundle one of
the four, namely, "Dear sir, you have now had". (To the
witness): Do you have a piece of paper which begins, "Dear
sir, you have now had"? A. Yes.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: That is page 159.
MR. TEMPLE: That is page 159, my Lord. (To the witness): Do
you also have the other piece of paper in the brownish
coloured writing? A. This one (indicating)?
Q. Would you put that on top of the page which begins, "You have
now" Are we agreed both of those writings are in joined up
writing? A. Yes, they are in joined up.
Q. That leaves us the remaining two pieces of paper? A. Yes.
Q. Do you agree both of those are printed? Look at the other
two pieces of paper. A. The ones I have on the table now,
these two (indicating)?
Q. Yes, both of those are printed, are they not? A. Yes.
Q. Does it come to this then we can leave this particular
matter: you are now saying you think that you were not shown
either of these two pages bearing joined up writing which you
have in front of you? A. Yes, I didn't realise - the other
ones - yes, it has all come back now. I was commenting on
the joined up ones which - I am not used to his joined up
writing but his block capitals. I do see a lot of it because
when he is explaining things to me he does write in block.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: When you say, "It has come back", what
do you mean? A. I was only looking at this paper; I
thought it was this paper (indicating).
MR. TEMPLE: Looking at the paper with the brownish ink, whose
writing is that? A. It could be Panos's.
Q. Looking at the remaining joined up sheet, "Dear sir, you have
now had", whose writing is that? (Pause) A. I believe
that they are written by two separate people.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Yes, but believing that, who do you
think wrote the one, "Dear sir, you have now had"? A. It
looks very much like his wife's but I cannot ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Is that the moment to stop?
MR. TEMPLE: Yes, my Lord.
(The trial was adjourned for a short time)
MR. HAMBLIN: My Lord, although Mr. Beckman is not in court at
the moment, my learned friend is cross-examining. I am quite
content.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Thank you very much.
ANDRE SYMEON KOUPPARIS: Recalled
Further cross-examined by Mr. Temple
MR. TEMPLE: I want to finally deal with one remaining matter.
MR. BECKMAN: May I apologise, my Lord, I was outside.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: No, that is all right.
MR. TEMPLE: I do not want you to guess or speculate: do you
know where your brother kept his drugs whilst he was in
London? A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know what your brother was doing in Cyprus at all,
what he did for his living, in detail? A. Not in detail,
no.
Q. By contrast, when he came to London was the position that he
was apparently quite ready to talk to you of his various
schemes? A. I wouldn't say he would, no.
Q. Did he talk to you about the wheel clamping scheme?
A. These are things I heard. He never really sat down and
talked to me about it. He didn't want me to, you know ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: A bit louder. A. How do you mean,
talk to me? He wouldn't have discussed it with me but I
heard him saying it.
MR. TEMPLE: Did he discuss wheel clamping operations with you?
A. Very, very vaguely.
Q. Did you hear him discuss it with others? A. Yes.
Q. Who? A. He discussed it with his wife. I heard him making
telephone conversations.
Q. Did you hear him speak to Mr. Melville at the Ministry of
Transport about it? A. No.
Q. You heard him having telephone conversations about that
subject? A. I think so.
Q. What other schemes did he mention to you? A. There are so
many.
Q. Just think about them, and tell us. A. It's funny how your
mind goes blank when you are trying to draw things from it.
Q. Did he talk to you about a scheme involving the set up of
an AIDS charity? A. Yes.
Q. That was an instance where you said you went along with him
to the Charity Commissioners? A. Yes.
Q. Did he discuss any scheme relating to setting up an Ireland
hotel, anything like that? A. Not an Ireland hotel, I
don't think it was an Ireland hotel, but it was a hotel which
would cater for the suffering of AIDS sufferers.
Q. Can we summarise it in this way: is it right that although
you cannot now remember the exact subject matter, he would
discuss or touch upon many potential money-making schemes?
A. Yes.
Q. My question to you is this: set against that summary, did he
ever mention to you any scheme he had for getting a large
amount of money from the Cyprus Government? A. No, not
ever.
Q. Finally, you told the jury that the family felt that he
required a doctor? A. Yes.
Q. In the event, the family never got him a doctor? A. No.
RE-EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
Q. Can I take the penultimate matter first, Mr. Koupparis: what
was put to you, the very issue in this case, was did he ever
discuss with you obtaining 15 million from the Cyprus
Government to which you said, "No". Did he ever discuss
Cyprus? A. Well, at one point he believed he was going to
be the next President of Cyprus.
Q. Carry on, that is what I want to find out. A. Yes, and
he - I think that is the only thing about Cyprus he spoke
about.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: It may be my fault but I cannot hear you
at all. I know that it is difficult, but can you try because
I have to hear it as well as the jury. He believed he was
going to be the next President, then you said something else.
A. Yes, he said he had a scheme to get Turkey out of North
Cyprus.
MR. BECKMAN: Anything else about politics in relation to Cyprus,
about whether he was to be the President or not? A. No,
not really.
Q. Did he ever say anything that made you believe that either he
wanted to or was saying he was going to do anything at all to
harm Cyprus? A. No, he always wanted to protect the
Cypriots over there. Okay, he was against Turkey invading
Cyprus, but nothing to do - destroy them or anything like
that.
Q. Just two matters I want to ask you about further. One was
you talked about Commander Nemo: will you tell us again why
you told what you told the police in that interview about
Commander Nemo? You told us you had a right of silence; you
used it from time to time; in this case you did not. Can you
explain clearly how you said what you said and why? A. I
was arrested from four o'clock from my place of work. I knew
nothing of why I was being arrested and I was taken to the
police station at Paddington still - the only thing I was
proved of was I was extorting money with menaces. That is
all I was told by the arresting officer, and I was asked
questions leading up to that question when they said to me,
"Why do you say it? Have you heard the name Captain Nemo?"
I know it is only a pet name that was my brother's so I
thought it cannot be anything connected why I was here and I
answered, "No", believing I had no relevance to me.
Q. In relation to that, so the jury are fully aware of the fact,
at first you were not being as it were brought in, "Excuse
me, Mr. Koupparis, could you come over and help us with some
enquiries and help us with a witness statement?" You were
not there that way, were you? A. No.
Q. You had been arrested, detained in respect of an offence.
Did you know anything at all about the offence and had you
committed any such offence? A. I hadn't committed an
offence. I knew nothing why I was there. I thought I was
going to be released the same evening.
Q. Were you being gently questioned or interrogated harshly, or
what? A. To me I take it as quite hard interrogation.
Q. Had you ever had that experience before? A. No.
Q. Then when they put the document to you and you said it had
joined up writing suggesting it might be Panos's, can you
recall which document was being referred to? (Pause)
A. I cannot remember for sure, no.
Q. One of those documents, the two that are there, if these were
the ones shown to you, one of which you say is the
handwriting of Mrs. Koupparis --- A. Hm hm.
Q. Have you any doubt about that? A. Well, of course I have
lots of doubts about whose writing it is but I was thinking
out of one or the other it looks like gentle writing of a
lady rather than the harsh of Panos, but I cannot say for
sure.
Q. The other matter I want to ask you: you said in this court
there was a document which looked like part of it could be
Panos's joined up writing. Is that the same document you
were referring to or not? A. Can you bring it to my
attention which one it is?
MR. BECKMAN: I am not sure which one it was.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Look at page 159; that is one of them.
MR. BECKMAN: That is the one you said looked like
Mrs. Koupparis's. Now look at what my friend called the
brown handwriting. You said earlier that some of it could
well be Mr. Panos's joined up handwriting. A. Possibly.
Q. Was that the document the police were showing you at the time
or can you not remember? A. I cannot remember. To tell
the truth, I was not really interested at the time of
questioning and I wasn't really interested, so I didn't take
much notice of it.
Q. I want to ask you this last question and it is this: it is
all the difference in the world between white lies and what
we have heard about, which are not dishonest in any way, but
you have been accused of lying in its insidious sense; you
appreciate that? A. Yes.
Q. I can ask you this so we know: have you had any contact with
the police before in this way? A. No, never.
Q. Have you any previous convictions at all? A. No.
Q. I know it may be a conceited thing for you to say, but would
you be a young man with a most excellent character? A. Yes.
Q. That you are? A. Yes, I am without being a bit heated
(sic) about it.
Q. Can I ask you this: even for your brother would you be
prepared to go to a court and lie, knowing the consequences
of committing perjury? A. Sorry?
MR. BECKMAN: All right, I will not repeat that question; the
answer is obvious.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: The only thing I want to ask you is
this: you were asking whether you knew where he kept drugs
while he was in London. You told the jury you saw him
taking a lot of pills in Cyprus: did you ever see him taking
pills in London? A. Yes, at the start he did, then he
decided he was going to stop taking them.
Q. You then described him in what perhaps would seem to be an
over-active or hyperactive state. A. Yes.
(The witness withdrew)
MR. BECKMAN: I wonder if one thing could be put. It was put to
my client at page 159, which was Mr. Koupparis's handwriting.
Can I ask if there is any challenge it was Mrs. K?
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Let us wait and see what the evidence is
from Mrs. Koupparis.
Index | Previous | Next