Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume IX, Pages 1-15, Monday 26th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
MR. BECKMAN: Would your Lordship allow me one moment? The
witness arrived rather suddenly and I want to check one
thing. (Pause) Mr. Karaghiorges [sic], he speaks good English
but it may be wise to have an interpreter.
(Interpreter sworn)
ANDREAS KARAGHIORGES [sic]:
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Mr. Karaghiorges [sic], do you speak English?
A. I speak a little.
Q. Would you rather have the questions interpreted? A. I
think sometimes maybe.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: I think it is probably better to do it
all in Greek.
ANDREAS KARAGHIORGES [sic]: Sworn
Examined by Mr. Beckman partly through interpreter
Q. Would you listen to the questions that come from me or this
gentleman on my right. Can you face the jury so that they
can see you. I will speak up and if you have problems
hearing me let me know. What is your full name? A. My
full name is Andreas Karaghiorges [sic].
Q. What is your personal address? A. My personal address is
Paracleous [sic](?) Street, 41 (inaudible) Nicosia, Cyprus.
Q. What is your occupation? A. My occupation for the moment
is bookseller. I own a bookshop and stationery and kiosk,
sell magazines and so on.
Q. What is the name of the bookshop? A. Irena Bookshop.
Q. How do you spell it? A. I.R.E.N.A.
Q. What is the address of the Irena Bookshop? A. Paracleous {sic]
Street, 41a (inaudible) Nicosia, Cyprus.
Q. What was your original training before you ran the bookshop?
A. I was a teacher before and I am a university graduate.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Would you say that again?
MR. BECKMAN: "I am a teacher before".
THE WITNESS: I was a teacher.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: A teacher of what? A. I taught
Russian and Greek for foreigners.
MR. BECKMAN: Have you lived in Russia for some years? A. Yes.
Q. How long? A. About eight years.
Q. What did you do in Russia? A. Sometimes I taught in an
institute, then I worked in the radio station as an
intepreter [sic].
Q. What language - what did you teach when at university?
A. I taught English.
Q. What did you do at the radio station? A. I worked there
for programmes for Cypriots so I translated for Russian to
Greek programmes.
Q. Do you know Panos Koupparis? A. Yes.
Q. When did you first meet him? A. I think it was in 1944/45.
Q. You must have been fairly young then? A. Yes, about five
years ago.
Q. Five years ago is not the date 1945. A. Oh, '85, excuse
me.
Q. Nineteen forty-five is the end of the Second World War.
A. I was mistaken, 1985.
Q. I probably remember that better than you. In 1985 when you
met him did you know he was married? A. Yes.
Q. And he had a daughter as well? A. Yes.
Q. Did he live near you? A. Excuse me?
Q. Did he live near you? A. Yes, they lived very near to me.
Q. When you first met him, did you become friendly with him or
not? A. Not at once.
Q. How then did you come to know him at first? A. He used to
came to my bookshop stationer. He bought some things and he
bought a newspapers, Herald Tribune especially, and some
magazines
Q. Did you slowly begin to have a conversation and get to know
each other? A. Yes.
Q. Were there any particular subjects in which he was
interested? A. He was interested in computers.
Q. Did you get any impression as to how well he was educated?
A. Of course you have conversations and I decided that he
knew too much about computers and of course about money,
other things, about science and so on.
Q. When you say "too much" ---? A. I understood he was a
specialist.
MR. BECKMAN: You say "too much". I think that should be
translated.
THE INTERPRETER: He means enough, he knew enough.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: He knew a good deal, I suppose?
A. Yes, a good deal.
MR. BECKMAN: Did he have a word processor at the time?
A. Yes, he had.
Q. He showed you how to use it? A. Once he showed me, just
once.
Q. What subjects would you discuss in conversation with him?
A. Many subjects, so sometimes we spoke about biology,
sometimes about scientific fictions; there are many
conversation, I cannot remember.
Q. Was he interested in politics? A. Sometimes he was not but
speak some times.
Q. Was he interested in science? A. Yes, in science he was
interested ---
Q. In what way was he interested in science? A. It is
difficult for me to remember our conversations. Say once we
spoke about - say we spoke once about the theory of Einstein,
about space and Einstein.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Relativity? A. Yes, that is right.
MR. BECKMAN: Did you find him an aggressive man, a polite man;
how would you describe him? A. My impression was he was a
very polite man and always I think he was ready to help
people.
Q. Was he much of a family man? A. Yes, he loved very much
his daughter and his wife.
Q. Did he enjoy living in Cyprus? A. I don't think so, he did
not.
Q. Why not? A. Because he lived for many years in London, in
the big city in England. Cyprus is a very small country and
Nicosia is a very small village, so he had problems to get
used to the life there.
Q. Why did he stay there then? A. I think because he loved
his wife and his family.
Q. For the first, say, two years that you knew him, was there
anything unusual about him? Was he normal? How did you
find him? A. Yes, he was very normal. I did not mention
anything strange to him.
Q. I think you mean did not notice anything strange. A. I did
not notice - yes, did not notice.
Q. How did he speak normally? What was his method of talking?
A. He was talking very calmly, very kindly. He had
objections to make.
Q. Did he have any particular sort of ideas? What sort of
ideas business-wise? A. The first two years I do not think
so, no. Just sometimes he spoke aobut [sic] business, about
economics, about all these matters.
Q. Did he --- A. About investment, I remember.
Q. Did there come a stage when he began to change? A. Yes, I
remember he had some changes; maybe it is the year before he
was arrested, 1986.
Q. In what way did he change? A. For example, when I went to
his house he was very depressed sometimes and he wanted all
the time to sleep at all time. "I want to sleep, I like to
sleep", and he did not get out of the house for many days.
Q. Did he see other people at the time? A. At that time, no.
Q. Was there anyone at all he would see then, or did not see?
A. I just remember when I went to him he accept me and speak
with me.
Q. Was he prepared to see you then? A. No, I did not call. I
did not 'phone him, I just were - sometimes I went to his
home without any informing him, without any invitation. I
used to go without invitation.
Q. Did his wife ask you to go from time to time? A. Sometimes,
yes, she told me come to him.
Q. Did he stay in the same mood, that is depressed, or did he
change from time to time? A. After a period of depressed I
saw that he became very ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: I think it would be better, Mr. Beckman,
if it was all translated. It is a little slower and we get
the right words. (To the witness): Would you answer in
Greek, then the interpreter will translate.
MR. BECKMAN: The only reason I prefer it is sometimes the effect
of translating everything is to cause a sort of personality
barrier between the witness and the jury.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: I do not think this will happen in the
case because he has shown them he is obviously a very genuine
man. I think it is better because he is missing some words.
MR. BECKMAN: Did his moods change? You say he was depressed;
did he ever change to a different mood from depression?
A. Yes, his disposition changed and within a period of time
he became a very energetic, reactive man.
Q. Did you during that period ever go out with him? A. Yes,
once or twice we did.
Q. Where did you go when you went out with him? A. We went to
coffee.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Would you wait until the question has
been translated to you?
MR. BECKMAN: Where did you go when you went out with him?
A. We went to coffee.
Q. Anywhere else? A. And sometimes we went to disco place.
Q. When you went to a disco place, how often did you do that?
A. We only went once.
Q. When you went there on that occasion did you drink? A. I
drink but Mr. Koupparis said that he could not drink alcohol
drinks because he was taking tablets.
Q. On the occasions when you went out with him to coffee or one
occasion to a discoteque [sic], was he still depressed or was his
mood different? A. At that time he was not depressed.
Q. When he was not depressed what was he like? How did he talk?
How did he react? A. Then he was speaking quick. He had
lots of ideas and he was feeling he could do lots of things.
Q. Did he have any particular scheme in mind at that time?
A. I remember that he found a way to get gold out of the
water of the sea.
Q. What sort of books was he reading at the time, or magazines?
A. I cannot remember.
Q. I will try another way. Do you remember watching any video
films with him? A. I remember we were watching film of
scientific fiction.
Q. As far as you are concerned, did he ever read books or
magazines of the same sort? A. Yes, he was reading, I
remember, with the red book, Odessia [sic] 2001.
Q. Were you aware at the time he was seeing any doctors?
A. Yes, he told me he was visiting the doctor.
Q. Do you know any of the details? A. I remember that the
doctor he was visiting, his name was Sophocleous. He was
doctor who's giving him too many tablets to take.
Q. Who felt that too many tablets were being given? A. He
himself was telling me he was taking too many tablets.
Q. Was there any period when he tried to limit the tablets the
doctor was prescribing him? A. I remember that he wanted
to change the doctor, his doctor.
Q. Did he change? A. I remember that he went to another
doctor.
Q. Do you remember the name of that doctor? A. Dr. Evdokas.
Q. Do you know whether or not the treatment changed with
Dr. Evdokas? A. I remember that Dr. Evdokas told him that
he must stop taking these tablets for a while, for approx-
imately a period of one or two weeks, in order to start new
treatment, and I think he was unable to stop.
Q. Did you personally advise him of a different form of
treatment? A. Yes, I tried tell him once to go to doctor
to have the therapy with needles.
Q. Acupuncture? A. Yes.
Q. Did he go to an acupuncturist? A. No, he did not.
Q. Can you tell us what his sleeping and waking habits were
like? A. When he was depressed?
Q. When he was depressed, yes. How often did he sleep, how
often was he awake as far as you could tell, from what you
saw? A. I remember that for one period he would sleep for
a long time, he was waking up for a short while then he was
sleeping again, and then the opposite thing could happen,
that he did not want to sleep at all.
Q. Did the pattern change towards the end of 1986, beginning of
1987? A. From what I remember, the period of his
depression would have gone up to the summer of 1986. Later
on he had changes and at the end of '86 was period when he
was very active again.
Q. In what way did he become active? How did this activity
show in contrast to his depression when he slept all the
time? A. For example, he was going out a lot, visiting
coffees. For example, he could visit Nicosia from his home
town. Then he would visit a different town from where he was
living.
Q. How did he speak? What sort of ideas did he have during this
active period, as you call it? A. As I told you previously,
he had many ideas. One of the ideas was, I mentioned before
about the gold, and another idea was he would be able to send
out the Turks from Cyprus, or push them out.
Q. Turks? A. Yes.
Q. When he told you he was going to send out the Turks from
Cyprus, did he tell you who he was going to see about it or
what he was going to do about it? A. He was telling me
that he had a way but he could not tell me how.
Q. Did he tell you who he was going to see in connection with
that? A. He told me that he could see some ministers,
government ministers.
Q. Did he mention any names of government ministers he was going
to see? A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he have many schemes in mind at that time? A. Yes.
Q. Did he speak about them frequently, or not? A. Yes, when
he was having a scheme in his mind, a plan, he would talk
one, two hours in order to explain it.
Q. With all these plans did you, at the end of the day, have
much idea what was going on? A. Some of the things I
formed the opinion they were unable to be achieved. I
thought they were mad plans, crazy plans.
MR. BECKMAN: When he left for the United Kingdom and in
comparison to what he had been when you first knew him, was
he in your view acting normally?
THE INTERPRETER: Could you kindly repeat that question?
MR. BECKMAN: When he went to the United Kingdom, was he in your
view normal, acting normally? A. Yes, that was the period
when he had all these plans in his mind.
Q. Did you find that normal in relation to the man you first
met? A. I think that he was a little bit confused.
Q. When he was in the United Kingdom did he ever telephone you?
A. Yes, he did 'phone me.
Q. How long did he speak to you on the telephone? A. One day
when he spoke to me he spoke to me for very long time.
Q. What did he tell you? A. He was saying what he was doing
in the United Kingdom. He was actually preparing a pop
group and that he himself was writing songs for this
particular group.
Q. He was having a pop group and writing songs; how did he sound
to you? A. A little bit strange, but I know that in Cyprus
he tried to have a pop group.
Q. How often did he telephone you when he was in the United
Kingdom before his arrest? A. Not very often, once or
twice.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. TEMPLE
Q. Did he give you the general impression that he had a
rudimentary knowledge of chemistry? A. Yes, he could
understand chemistry.
Q. Did he also give you the impression that he had a rudimentary
knowledge of electronics? A. I know that he was a man of
many sided knowledge, that he was actually having (inaudible)
in computers, which indicates that he had relation with
electronics.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he worked as a representative with
a company which specialised in surveillance, electronic
surveillance? A. No, he did not.
Q. I want to ask you about his general mood. Can we summarise
it in this way if you agree: his mood would swing?
A. When?
Q. During late 1986. A. Yes.
Q. And he would fly from idea to idea? A. I agree.
Q. And he would talk to you about some of these ideas? A. Yes,
sometimes he was talking to me yes, not always.
Q. Did you get the impression that when he talked to you about
these ideas, he believed in them? A. Yes, I believe that
to a degree he was believing them.
Q. Do you remember mentioning the episode of the pop group?
A. I am sorry?
Q. I want to ask you about the pop group. Was the position
this: that before he left to go to London he had assisted in
the organisation of a music festival? A. Where?
Q. In Cyprus, I cannot tell you where; you know nothing about
that? A. No.
Q. Did you personally see what he was doing with regard to the
pop group in Cyprus? A. I remember when we were in Cyprus
in a tavern he found a musician who was living in the
neighbourhood and was known to him and he was playing the
guitar. He also found a girl who was singing for the first
time and he tried with this girl with another two musicians
to form a group.
Q. Can I just summarise that in this way: did you get the
impression that in his mind he was taking steps to form a pop
group? A. No, because the one he formed, it was different,
it was bazouki [sic] basis.
Q. Did you get the impression he was seriously trying to form a
musical group of some kind? A. I know that he tried but
very soon he failed and he stopped.
Q. It comes to this: he was not just talking about it, he was
trying to put it into action? A. Yes, he tried.
Q. Did he ever talk to you about his financial position?
A. No.
Q. Never mentioned it at all? A. No.
Q. Did he ever mention to you that he expected to get a lot of
money? A. No.
Q. Did he ever mention to you any idea he had about getting
money from the Cypriot Government? A. No.
Q. Apart from the ideas about gold from seawater and the pop
group, can you remember any other ideas he mentioned to you?
A. No.
Q. You cannot remember any other ideas? A. I know that in
Cyprus he had a company that was dealing with investments but
I do not know how much profit he made because he never
mention to me.
Q. Did you know he ran a company called Futura Investments?
A. Yes, that is the one I am talking about.
Q. When he was speaking to you did he give you the impression
he was actively engaged in running that company? A. Yes,
it was his own company, therefore in Cyprus he was getting
back that.
Q. Finally, did he tell you why it was that he was coming to
London? A. No, simply I know he has been to London for a
long time, approximately three years from what I remember and
he simply wanted to go to London.
Q. Did he not tell you why? A. No.
Q. Did you not ask? A. No, why?
Q. When did you first know he was coming to London?
A. Perhaps one, two, three days before his departure.
Q. It came as a surprise to you? A. No, because I know that
his mother was residing in London, that he had friends in
London and his brothers in London.
RE-EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
Q. You were asked about your impressions about him and his ideas
and the like. First of all I want to ask you this: of all
the ideas that he had, did you consider them realistic?
A. No.
Q. Why not? A. I know a few things and when he was telling me
about the plan he could get gold out of the sea and when he
was developing these ideas to me, that he will get a
scientific sheet to do that and he will call scientists from
all over the world in order to achieve this plan, I was
considering it very strange, and from the money that he would
get shares so that the people can have a share in the
company, I was thinking that this was unrealistic, that this
was strange.
Q. Tell me this: in this connection you were asked about
whether he told you about getting moneys from the Cyprus
Government and you said "No". Can I ask you this: whether
normal or abnormal, did you ever hear him utter ideas which
involved his wanting to steal, his wanting to do something
terribly dishonest, like blackmailing the Cyprus government
for 15 million, anything of a dishonest nature, apart from an
unusual nature? A. No, he never told me a thing like that
and I do not think he would ever do such a thing.
Q. When he spoke about his ideas in relation to Cyprus, whether
normal or abnormal, did he ever express an interest in doing
harm to Cyprus or to the people of Cyprus? A. No, he
never. On the contrary, he was telling me that he would find
a way to get rid of the tax in order to help the people of
Cyprus.
Q. So his ideas were benevolent even though they were
far-fetched? A. Yes, his intentions were good.
Q. The only other matter I would ask about: you were asked
whether he was talking about Futura and business. What was
not specified was the period we were talking about. What
period did he tell you about when he was active in relation
to business, Futura? A. When he came to Cyprus he must
have been 1985 - 1984, 1985 - then he started forming this
company and he was active in it from what I know as he was
telling me, then middle of 1986 must have stopped because I
did not hear anything about it further.
Q. So was he active in the business of Futura during this period
when he was abnormal? A. No.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Do you know anything or everything about
what he did in London between 26th March and the date of his
arrest? A. As I told you, during this period - must have
been during this period that he telephoned me and he told
me that he was engaged in forming a pop group.
(The witness withdrew)
MR. BECKMAN: My Lord, I am sorry about this but due to train
problems with one of my team, the fax did not arrive over the
weekend.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Who is next?
MR. BECKMAN: Dr. Widdowson, and there was information that
should have been here and did not arrive. Would your
Lordship allow me 15 minutes?
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Yes, we will adjourn.
MR. BECKMAN: I am much obliged.
(The trial was adjourned for a short time)
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