Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume IV, Pages 1-17, Tuesday 13th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
(Interpreter sworn)
THE INTERPRETER: The language is Greek.
CHRISTOS MAVRELLIS: Sworn
Examined by Mr. Temple
Q. Mr. Mavrellas [sic], before we begin, do you feel more at ease if
the interpreter should be with you or are you prepared to try
and give your evidence in English in any event? A. I
believe I can manage in any event.
MR. TEMPLE: My Lord, what I would ask is that the interpreter
remain in court should her services be required.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Yes. (To the witness): If you have any
problem at any time tell me. A. Yes, my Lord, I will.
MR. TEMPLE: Before we begin, I would ask that that there is
distributed a summary of various telephone conversations.
(Handed to the Court, the witness and the jury) (To the
witness): Mr. Mavrellis, in a moment I want to turn to the
summaries, but I just want to take you through a little bit
of the background as far as you personally are concerned.
Are you still Minister of Finance? A. No, I am not.
Q. What is your present position? A. I am a practising lawyer.
Q. Do you have any direct connection with the government at the
present time? A. No, none at all.
Q. Can I take you back to April 1987: what was your position
then? A. I was serving as Minister of Finance for the
Republic of Cyprus.
Q. Where were you based? A. In Nicosia.
Q. Was that at the Ministry of Finance itself? A. Yes.
Q. I want to turn in particular to 2nd April 1987. Would you
confirm that on that day you received a total of four
telephone calls, the last three of which you taped?
A. This is true.
Q. I want to ask you about the content of those four telephone
calls. Taking them in order, the first call; at what time
approximately did you receive it? A. The first call which
I received was at about 1.30.
Q. Did the caller identify himself? A. Yes.
Q. As being ---? A. He identified himself as being Colonel
Digsby of the British Intelligence Service. In fact, he
said something about MI6.
Q. What did he have to tell you? A. Well, he said he was
trying to contact the Presidential Palace, the President
himself but he was unable to do so, and then he went on to
say that he had reason to believe that the President's
telephone lines were tapped.
Q. Did he give you any indication as to the subject matter about
which he wanted to talk? A. Yes, he said that it was about
certain threats which must have been received by the
President and that he wanted to discuss it with him.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: About threats which must have been
received by the President? A. Yes, and he wanted me to -
he asked me whether I knew about it.
MR. TEMPLE: When he asked you whether or not you knew about it,
what did you reply? A. I said that I know nothing about it
but I shall try to speak to the President and I asked him to
call me back. He then said that he wanted me to give him
the private line because again he said that he believed that
also ministers' lines were tapped.
Q. Were you prepared to give him your private telephone number?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. On that note did the conversation come to an end? A. Yes,
this first conversation came to an end.
Q. This, of course, is the telephone conversation which was not
on tape? A. It was not, no.
Q. Following that call, did you talk to anybody at the
Presidential Palace or any other government official? A. I
tried to talk to the President but I was told he was resting.
Q. Who did you contact instead? A. I contacted the Minister
of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Georgio [sic] Iachovou [sic].
Q. Did you tell him the substance of the conversation about
which you have just told us? A. Yes, I briefed him about
it.
Q. As far as you were concerned, did you take the matter up as
a result? A. Well, these type of things must not be
ignored.
Q. Did you, again summarising matters, contact the telecom-
munications authority and ask that your telephone number and
telephone line be kept under surveillance? A. This is
correct. I contacted Minister Poppyanou [sic] and I asked that my
telephone line to be put under surveillance.
Q. It really came to this: after that first telephone call you
were in the position that you wanted to tape any further
telephone calls which would come through? A. Yes.
Q. I want you, please, to turn to the summary which the Court
and jury and indeed you have. Mr. Mavrellis, what I want to
do is read through with you the summaries which have been
prepared of the three further 'phone calls which were
received by you on 2nd April, and I want you to confirm or
otherwise tell us whether or not they really reflect the
gist, the substance, of what was being said. Dealing with
Exhibit AD/16, which I think is the actual tape on which you
recorded it, we can see that this tape contains a telephone
conversation between two males. One gives his name as
Colonel Digsby, the second one is believed to be
Mr. Mavrellis, the Minister of Finance. Pausing there,
would you confirm that it was you? A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. "Mr. Mavrellis tells Digsby that he has arranged
to meet the President of Cyprus at 4.30 p.m.
There is conversation regarding the existence
of REC3".
Then there is a quote:
"Digsby: 'We have 100 per cent proof that
REC3 exists. It's a highly sophisticated
and highly secure method. It's virtually
impregnable ..... There is only one way to
neutralise its effect ..... by using several
tons of bleaching powder on each unit before
it's activated.' Then Digsby goes on to say,
'You have very short time before one or more
of these units are activated.' Mavrellis:
'How long?' Digsby: 'I don't know.'"
Then the person who has conducted the summary says:
"At this point the tape continues with the
voices of the recording engineers and
background noises before the recording of
the actual conversation between Digsby and
Mr. Mavrellis resumes. The quality of this
recording is very poor and at stages unreadable.
Digsby goes on to say that Mr. Kyprianou (the
President of Cyprus) has been fully briefed
on this matter.
"Mavrellis: 'Do you think that these
explosives have been planted in Cyprus?'
Digsby: "..... techincal [sic] work has been
deployed around Cyprus'. Mavrellis:
'Throughout Cyprus?' Digsby: '..... by
this organisation. These weapons are
automatic. They won't trigger off their own,
but they are in radio communication with a
central point where we have no idea where
it is ..... concealed'. Mavrellis: 'Do we
have any idea where we can locate them?'
Digsby: 'None whatsoever. All we know is
that these units were concealed some time in
the last six months'. Mavrellis: 'Six
months?' Digsby: 'And they could be
anywhere ..... in a parked car, they could
be in a building, they could be buried in
the ground.'"
Then the summariser makes the following comment:
"It is of interest to note two points in
this conversation.
"(1) Digsby, in answer to a question by
Mr. Mavrellis says 'Yes' but uses the Greek
word 'Yes'.
"(2) When Digsby mentions Mr. Kyprianou he
pronounces that name in such a way that only
a Greek normally could. These two points
strengthen my belief that despite all the
scrambling used to disperse Digsby's voice,
he is a Greek who lived a number of years
in England."
Can we pause there, please. Does that summary accord with
your memory as to the substance of that second conversation?
A. Yes, this is true. Of course, I make no reference to
those comments which are not mine.
Q. I want to ask you your personal impression of Digsby's voice.
First of all, was it easy to understand? A. It appeared to
me that he was using some scrambler or something like this.
Q. Apart from using the scrambler, did his voice appear to you
to be logical and easy to follow? A. Well, at some
instances yes, but then he was changing subjects suddenly.
Q. Would that be the case in the other recordings as well?
A. Yes.
Q. That was a characteristic? A. Correct.
MR. TEMPLE: I want to take you through the third of the
conversations. It is our Exhibit 17, the summary half way
down the second page.
"This tape contains the telephone conversation
between Mr. Mavrellis (the Minister of Finance)
and a man who calls himself Colonel Disby [sic].
Mr. Mavrellis tells Digsby that he has met
with the President, but the President knows
nothing about 'Force Majeure'. Digsby tells
Mr. Mavrellis that 'Fore Majeure' will be
asking for a ransom and if that is not paid
'you' (the Island of Cyprus) will be the first
victim of the terrorist."
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: "Island of Cyprus"; that is different
from mine.
MR. BECKMAN: It is clear on the tape: "you" means the Island of
Cyprus not "you personally".
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: It is just that my transcript is
different. "You, Cyprus, will be the first victim of the
terrorists".
MR. TEMPLE: Yes.
"He then explains how deadly Dioxine [sic] is.
In this conversation Digsby alleges that he
belongs to MI6 and he admits that he is using
a scrambler. He also explains that P.I.G.s
stands for poison injection generators."
Again, Mr. Mavrellis, does that accord with your memory?
A. Yes. Of course, that was a much longer conversation.
Q. Again from your memory, is there anything significant which
you think has been left out in that summary? A. Well, I
remember I asked him whether the High Commissioner was aware
of this incident, of his threats, and he replied that no, he
did not know about it.
Q. When you say "the High Commissioner" --- A. The British
High Commissioner in Nicosia. I also asked him, I remember,
whether he could come to Cyprus in order to discuss matters,
trying to see whether he was calling from Cyprus or not.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: You had no way of telling at this stage
from where he was ringing? A. Yes, sure, and he didn't
react, but later on when I asked him again whether we could
meet, he said he would order - he had been ordered to leave;
meaning, I presume, Cyprus. I also asked, I remember,
whether anybody else knew about it and he said "No". He said
that he was the man in charge in MI6 on this subject.
MR. TEMPLE: I want to come to the fourth and final conversation.
Again we can see the transcript starts just below half way
down our page 2.
"This tape contains the telephone conversation
of Mr. Mavrellis, the Minister of Finance, and
a man who claims to be Digsby attached to
British Military Intelligence. This recording
is of very poor quality and at times Digsby
is unreadable. In this conversation Digsby
tells Mr. Mavrellis that it is of utmost
urgency that he speaks to the President
regarding 'Force Majeure'. Mr. Mavrellis
tells him that the President is resting at
the moment and he (Mavrellis) would not be
able to contact him before 3.30 p.m. or
4.00 p.m.
"Mr. Mavrellis: 'I hope that by 3.30 to four
o'clock I shall be able to speak to him, but
you say that it is about a request or demands
which have been made on the Government of
Cyprus from an organisation called 'Force
Majeure. And you have information about
this organisation.' Digsby: 'We have the
intelligence to help you'. Mr. Mavrellis:
'To help us. Is there any place I could
contact you in case I make contact with the
President earlier?' Digsby: 'For security
reasons I would like to leave my options open'.
Mr. Mavrellis: 'I am said that you are of
the British High Commission'. Digsby: 'I
said I was with the British Military
Intelligence'. Digsby then promises to
ring again at 3.30 p.m.
"The recording device is left switched on.
The rest of the tape is background noises."
Would you confirm all your telephone conversations with
Digsby were in English? A. Yes, all in English.
Q. That really completed the substance of the telephone
conversations you had with Digsby? A. That is correct.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
MR. BECKMAN: Mr. Mavrellis, before I come to the general line of
questions, there are one or two things specifically arising
out of what you just said. Do you recall Mr. Temple asking
you the question, "Were you worried?" and your reply was ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: "Did you take it seriously?"
MR. BECKMAN: Yes, thank you very much. (To the witness): "Did
you take it seriously?" and your reply was, "You cannot
ignore these things". Do I take it that by a careful answer
in that way in relation to the question, particularly as you
are a lawyer, what you were saying was this: it does not
matter how far-fetched or ridiculous these things may be, one
has always got to be careful? A. Well, certainly one must
always be careful when you have to do with human life.
Q. Did I put it fairly; do we agree? A. Yes.
Q. You were then, a short while later - and I hope I have the
question right this time - you were asked something to the
effect that "Was he clear and succinct when speaking to you?"
something of that sort, to which your reply was, "Well, he
was changing subject quite a lot". Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sure.
Q. Can I again take it, by that careful answer, that what you
were indicating, or trying to indicate, was that it was not
clear in the sense that he hopped from one subject to
another? A. Well, he was always insisting to find out
whether the threats have been received by the President, and
even if I was changing the subject and asking other
questions again, he was coming back to them.
Q. Did you know by that time whether or not the demand had been
received at the Presidential Palace? A. Well, after the
first telephone conversation I knew that certain demands
were received.
Q. Was that what you were telling him then? A. Well, I was
telling him that they were not received.
Q. Why? A. This was the line of approach which we decided to
take.
Q. For what purpose? A. Well, just to keep him calling and
calling, to gain time.
Q. So that again, if I use the word "lie", you know I mean a
white lie, I am not suggesting anything bad about it - was
the whole purpose - you say the demand had been received -
whether it was effective or not or otherwise, the blackmail
demand had been made, as far as you were concerned, in Cyprus
to the President, against the people of Cyprus? A. Yes,
that is correct.
Q. What you were then doing was indulging in the odd white lie
for the purpose of trying to find out who he was, this man
who made the demand, where he was and to get perhaps evidence
against him in relation to that demand; that was the purpose
of it? A. Well, the purpose was not to get evidence
against the person, the purpose was to find out who was
making the threats.
Q. So that you knew the demands had been made. What was then
happening, from your evidence, was to find out who he was and
where he was? A. Yes.
Q. Of course, with your knowledge of what had occurred, you
were asking him quite a few pertinent questions - that is
him, Digsby - about his connection with intelligence; that is
the purpose of what you were doing? A. Well, he pretended
to be a man of the British Intelligence.
Q. You were, as it were, questioning him on that level because
you did not believe him? A. Certainly I did not.
Q. Did you know he had different identities? A. What type of
identities?
Q. Did you know that he had used other names? A. No.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Not at that stage? A. Not at that
stage, yes. To me he never used any other identity.
MR. BECKMAN: I am going to come to the main line of what I
intended to ask and it covers some - please bear with me. On
23rd March we know that the demand was received at the
Presidential Palace before you got the 'phone call on
2nd April. You know nothing at all about it; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Again we know or will know - my Lord Mr. Stavrou page 412 -
that a meeting was convened immediately after the 23rd, if
not on the 23rd, with the Chief of Police, Mr. Yannou [sic] and the
Minister of the Interior. Do I take it you also know nothing
at all about that meeting? A. Nothing at all.
Q. You were not told about that meeting? A. No.
Q. You were at that time a member of the then government?
A. Yes.
Q. But you were not informed about it? A. I was not.
Q. Can I take it then that the people, as far as you were
concerned, who would be directly concerned would be the then
President, the then Minister of the Interior? A. Correct.
Q. What was his name? A. The Minister of the Interior?
Q. The Minister of the Interior. A. Minister Tinos [sic]
Michaelides.
Q. The other person directly concerned would be Mr. Yannou [sic] who
was Chief of Police? A. Yes.
Q. He is still Chief of Police? That is not a political
appointment, he is a civil servant? A. He is still Chief
of Police.
Q. It is those three persons, there may be others, but basically
these three persns [sic], the President, the Minister of the
Interior and the Chief of Police, who would decide what
should be done after the 23rd? A. Well, they are the more
closely connected to such an incident.
Q. So they are the ones who would decide what course of conduct,
what approach was to be taken? A. I should think so.
Q. At any event, on the first call you give him your private
number? A. Yes, I did.
Q. You are ignorant at that time of the reality? A. Correct.
Q. You attempted to speak to the President; you got no joy, he
is resting, so you then speak to the Minister of Foreign
Affairs and that is Mr. Iachovou [sic]? A. Correct. He is still
the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Q. Mr. Iachovou [sic], he knew about it? A. That is what he said.
Q. Did he know about it superficially or in depth; could you
tell? A. I formed the impression that he knew everything
about it.
Q. Mr. Iachovou [sic], as far as you are concerned - and can you
interrelate his knowledge as well as his position in the
government - would he have been the person who would be party
to any decision as to what should be done about this demand
and this person who had made the demand? A. Well, I can
say that if this demand was going to be met or any action was
going to be taken on such a demand, then certainly a council
of ministers would have been informed as a body.
Q. Which would include you? A. Yes.
Q. So can you give me the steps that would have caused such a
meeting to take place? Can you say it again? A. Yes, I
say if any action, government action, was to be taken such
as, for example, meeting the demand or doing something which
would involve the payment of money, then certainly a
council of ministers of the Republic would have been
informed.
Q. So therefore at that stage there was no intention to pay
money? A. Well, first of all you just said, if I may say,
that demand was received on the 23rd. This date is heard by
me only today and from that time onwards, until I received
the telephone call on 2nd April, there was nothing done, no
request was made and no further approach by anybody towards
the President to my knowledge, so there was nothing to be
done then.
Q. That is why --- A. And of course, if I may continue ---
Q. Most certainly. A. Nobody - this information should have
been kept strictly confidential between as few people as
possible so as not to have any leakage.
Q. That would exclude ministers until such time as positive
action ought to be taken? A. Not all the ministers.
Q. Certainly some, but the meeting would have been called and
you would have been informed had there been a real intention
to pay? A. Yes, certainly. In fact, I also asked Colonel
Digsby, whoever was, why he was calling me and he said, "You
are the man who have the money and you are going to pay", and
I said, "But here we have budgetary restrictions so we cannot
just pay money just like that".
Q. Statutory restrictions? A. Budgetary restrictions.
Q. The budget does not include an allowance for a blackmail
demand, does it? A. Certainly not. I was trying to put
him off. It is not so easy that we can, just by sending
cheque, pay money.
Q. That must be obvious, but what you were doing, effectively
you were, to use an English phrase, stringing him along?
A. I do not understand.
Q. Stringing him along; just playing with him so he would
take --- A. Yes, certainly.
Q. In other words, not taking him particularly seriously. What
you were after was finding him and hopefully arresting him?
A. If it was in Cyprus.
MR. BECKMAN: I will come back to that.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: There were two halves to that. (To the
witness): You believed he was in Cyprus? A. No, my Lord.
I did not know. At some stage, after I think the second
conversation or the third I am not sure, I was told that he
is out of Cyprus from the United Kingdom.
MR. BECKMAN: What did Mr. Iachovou [sic] tell you was being done about
it? A. I beg your pardon?
Q. What did Mr. Iachovou [sic] tell you was being done about this
demand or about this man? A. He did not tell me in the
first instance; he just told me, "We know about it; I am
aware of this. Call the director of the telecommunications
authority and ask him to put the line under surveillance."
Q. You then speak to, I think that is Mr. Poppyanou [sic], who is
director of the Cyprus Telecommunications Authority?
A. Yes.
Q. I take it Mr. Poppyanou [sic] is a civil servant? A. No, the
Cyprus Telecommunications Authority is some government
organisation.
Q. Does his position change when the government changes?
A. No, he is there always.
Q. Did he know anything at all about it or was he merely the man
to speak to if you wanted your telephone tapped or bugged?
A. He was the man to speak to.
Q. He himself knew nothing about this? A. No.
Q. So you have your 'phone then, as it were bugged, if I may use
that word, for the purpose of helping you find the man who
has made the demand. That is the reason for it? A. That
is correct.
Q. There are then three 'phone calls, all of which are put on
tape. Can you tell us this: did you find out - and if you
do not know tell us - did you find out where the 'phone calls
came from? A. I was told at some stage the first instance.
Q. Do you remember when you were told? A. Well on the first
call after the telephone was put under surveillance I was
told that is outside Cyprus but they couldn't tell me where
from.
Q. That is the first call. What about the second call? Can I
put it another way: were you told ever before you finished
the 'phone calls, or as a result of these 'phone calls they
discovered where the 'phone calls were coming from?
A. They discovered the 'phone calls were coming from the
United Kingdom, so I was told.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: From the United Kingdom but not from
where? A. I do not remember being told where from.
MR. BECKMAN: You knew of course that he had been arrested;
eventually you were told? A. Eventually it was on the
newspapers, BBC.
Q. You discovered the newspapers and the BBC, that is how you
found out? A. Yes, it was first on the BBC.
Q. This was a demand against the Government, through the
President, and against the people of Cyprus which had taken
place in Cyprus as far as you were concerned? A. Well, I
know that a document containing these threats was received in
Cyprus. Where it was posted I do not know.
Q. May I tell you this - your Lordship will permit me - the
evidence that we have is that it arrived - it was stamped
although there was no franking on the envelope - in the
ordinary post at the Presidential Palace. There is evidence
about it. A. If you say so.
Q. I only say so from the prosecution evidence, not from my own
knowledge I do assure you. You have the demand there so
you knew he is arrested in England. As I say, it is a crime
against people in Cyprus; it took place in Cyprus and it was
after the 23rd you knew - I withdraw that because it would be
wrong. Do you know if any steps were taken to extradite him
to Cyprus for him to be tried there in relation to this
crime? A. I do not know.
Q. Do you know if any attempts at all were made? A. For
extradition?
Q. Yes. A. I do not know.
Q. Can I put it this way: if there were any attempts to
extradite him at all, do you have any idea from your direct
knowledge why that would be so? A. I do not understand
this question.
Q. Why he would not be taken to Cyprus to be tried for the
offence committed in Cyprus. A. I do not know, this is not
my responsibility.
Q. Who would make such a decision? A. I would say the
Minister of Justice perhaps.
Q. Presumably also the President might be involved? A. He
might be involved just discussing the subject with the
Minister.
Q. The Minister of the Interior might be involved. A. Not
really.
Q. The Chief of Police would be involved? A. I do not see
how.
Q. So it would be surely then the Minister of Justice? A. It
is the Minister of Justice, and Attorney General perhaps.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Mr. Mavrellis, did you know of the
receipt by your High Commissioner in London of the demand -
what we call the demand document - together with the other
documents which were delivered to him before the arrest?
A. Well, I was briefed, if I may say, that he attempted
to get some money.
Q. No, I think that is something different. We are going to
hear about him trying to get money but we know that a second
set of demand blackmail documents were sent to the High
Commissioner in London; do you understand? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know about that at the time he was arrested?
A. I knew he was in contact also with the Cyprus High
Commissioner in London.
(The witness withdrew)
Index | Previous | Next