Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume II, Pages 7-18, Friday 9th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
MR. TEMPLE: My learned junior, Mrs. Jessell, will call the next
witness, who is Mr. Kindersley.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: In view of the eminently sensible lack
of cross-examination of the girl, does this witness advance
the case for the prosecution or the defence?
MR. BECKMAN: May I say we have carefully worked out what was to
come in.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Wait a minute, I have asked the
question. If it advances your case, very well.
MR. BECKMAN: The answer is it may advance my case; it may be of
assistance to the Crown.
BARNABAS GUY KINDERSLEY: Sworn
Examined by Mrs. Jessell
Q. Mr. Kindersley, it is very important that the jury are able
to hear exactly what you say and his Lordship has to make a
note, so please can you keep your voice up. It is a big
court so throw your voice across the room. Is your name
Barnabas Guy Kindersley? A. Yes.
Q. Would you give the Court your address? A. Two Matherley
Street, London SE11.
Q. What I want to ask you questions about is a long time ago,
1987, March and April. Was there an occasion then when you
were with three of your friends, that is Jake Clennell, Sophy
Thompson and Charlotte Cripps, and was there an occasion in
the early hours of the morning when you happened to come
across a computer shop in the Shaftsbury Avenue, Charing
Cross area? A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Whom did you notice there? A. Nemo, Panos Koupparis was
standing there.
Q. A man? A. Yes, a man.
Q. What was he doing? A. He was just looking at the computers
in the shop.
Q. Did you have a conversation with him? A. He asked me for a
cigarette.
Q. Did you have one? A. I can't remember whether I did or
not.
Q. Did you make any comment to him about the computer shop?
A. Yes, I said, "Don't look in there too long or else you
will die of radon poisoning".
Q. Did you have any further conversation with him, and if so, as
a result of that conversation, where did you go? A. Well,
he asked us if we would like to come back to his hotel.
Q. Which hotel was that? A. The White House, off Gt. Portland
Street.
Q. Did you? A. Yes.
Q. All of you? A. Yes.
Q. When you went to The White House Hotel, what did you do
there? A. We had some drinks.
Q. To whom did you think you were speaking at that time?
A. Nemo.
Q. Is that what he told you was his name? A. Yes, he said he
called himself Commander Nemo and we just thought, "That's
fine if he wants to call himself Commander Nemo".
Q. Did you go with him to any other hotels? A. Yes, we went
to the Inter Continental and to - I can't - the Churchill,
that's it.
Q. What I want to ask you a little more about is at The White
House Hotel was there an occasion when you went there to ask
for him? A. Yes, we did.
Q. For whom did you ask? A. Mr. Edwards.
Q. Why did you ask for Mr. Edwards? A. Because he said - he
told us to and he told us to ask for Mr. Edwards, and we
assumed that was his real name, because obviously Nemo
wasn't.
Q. When you got to The White House Hotel and asked for
Mr. Edwards, what happened? A. Well, like, he came out and
they were packing his car with all his stuff and he said he
was getting thrown out over a dispute.
Q. As a result of that, when you left the hotel where did you
go? A. We went to The Good Earth Chinese restaurant in
Knightsbridge.
Q. That is quite an expensive restaurant? A. Yes.
Q. Who paid for your visit there? A. He did.
Q. Did he always pay for the four of you? A. Yes.
Q. Can you remember how he paid --- A. In cash.
Q. --- when they presented the bill? A. Cash.
Q. After you had been to The Good Earth, can you remember where
you went then? A. Yes, we went to Heaven Under the Arches;
it is a nightclub.
Q. You all went to Heaven; I presume that is a nightclub, is it?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to move on and ask you about visits to the Inter
Continental Hotel which you mentioned. Can you remember any
particular visit there and who you met? A. Yes, we went
there once and the first time we met him in the bar and some
friends of his - I think there were three or four. One of
them was his brother and then, I don't know, I can't remember
the other two.
Q. He introduced one of them as his brother? A. Well, he
didn't but we found out later that he was his brother.
Q. What sort of impression did you get of the people that you
met there? A. They seemed - you know, they seemed quite
well off. They had quite a lot of money and they were being
sort of flash about everything.
Q. You knew him as Commander Nemo. Were you still addressing
him as that at this time? A. We called him Nemo and we
asked both people why, if that was his real name, and they
laughed.
Q. Was the custom in fact generally to go to a small hotel and
on to a nightclub when you met Nemo? A. Yes.
Q. Did there come a time when you were to take a short holiday
in Italy with Charlotte Cripps? A. Yes.
Q. When you came back did you have occasion to meet any other
people to whom he introduced you? For instance, did you
ever meet his family? A. We went all round to someone's
house in Peckham once. I don't know whether that was his
family or not.
Q. What was the purpose of going to Peckham? A. It was because
he wanted us to record - do some recording on some
instruments.
Q. Was that an idea that pleased you? A. Why not? It was
Sunday.
Q. Do you have any experience on a musical instrument? A. Yes,
I used to play the bass guitar.
Q. What did he want for the group of you? A. He just wanted
to see if we could. He had the idea he was going to make us
into a pop group.
Q. To cut it very shortly, did that idea come off? A. No.
Q. Did you have any recording tests? A. We did at this guest
house but it was only a four track recording thing. It was
quite small; it wasn't anything.
Q. Was it successful? A. No.
Q. Before we move on to the Churchill Hotel which you mentioned
earlier, did you ever meet Nemo's wife? A. Yes, we did at
the Inter Continental the second time and he had ---
Q. What did you call him in front of her? A. He asked us to
call him Panos, Pan.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: He asked you to call him Pan? A. Yes,
before his wife came down.
MRS. JESSELL: Did you do that? A. Yes.
Q. At that point did you actually find out his correct name?
A. We asked to see some ID. We did anyway and we saw his
passport and some other identification and it set out his
name on it, Panos Koupparis.
Q. I would now like to move on to the Churchill Hotel. When you
went there was it with him or did you meet him there?
A. Yes, we went with him.
Q. Was that all four of you again? A. Yes.
Q. Whom did you meet when you were there at the Churchill?
A. We met two blokes, sort of big guys.
Q. I am sorry, I did not hear that. A. Sorry, these two
blokes. I can't remember them that well, they were quite
big.
Q. What impression did you get of them? A. They had loads
of money.
Q. You were obviously at the Churchill; were you having drinks?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you stay at the Churchill Hotel or go anywhere else?
A. We stayed there for a bit, then we went to the - one of
the men left and we went to the other man's apartment in
St. John's Wood.
Q. On what floor was his apartment, can you remember? A. No,
sorry.
Q. Did you feel at ease there? A. Yes, for a bit, but then we
felt a bit uneasy about the situation so we left.
Q. Why did you feel a bit uneasy about the situation? A. Well
because, you know, we didn't really know - we didn't really
know them very well and we were in this apartment with them
and obviously we thought, you know, it wasn't a good idea so
we left.
Q. When you were talking with Mr. Koupparis on these various
occasions, you mentioned the pop group sound recording that
you had. Do you remember anything that he said he wanted to
do? A. He had all sorts of business schemes, I think, sort
of going. He showed us a cat something, a leaflet on
something on an investment company.
Q. Did he ever say anything about money? A. At one point he
said something. He said he was going - he said he had done a
deal or something and was going to be making some money or
something. I didn't ask what it was.
Q. Can you remember if he said how much money he was hoping to
make? A. Sorry. Well, it was something like some nine,
ten million, something like that, I don't know.
Q. Can you remember on what occasion specifically that he
mentioned that amount of money in millions? A. No,
I can't.
Q. Can you remember whether he actually said sterling or some
other currency? A. No.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
Q. Was this whole as it were - I do not know how to describe
this relationship, but it all started basically with a joke
of yours when you saw him looking into the window? A. Yes.
Q. And as a result of that joke of yours about getting radon
from computers, you walk along friendly and he asks for a
cigarette? A. Yes.
Q. I think you told us fairly soon after that he, you said,
called himself Commander Nemo? A. Yes, in the taxi.
Q. By then you got into a taxi? A. Yes.
Q. Sort of, "Hello, I'm so and so and what's your name?" "I am
Commander Nemo"? A. Yes.
Q. Have you read Jules Verne? A. No, I haven't actually.
Q. You might do so, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. A. I knew
it was from that.
Q. I suppose the first thing is it caused you to smile?
A. Yes, we thought, "Groovy guy".
Q. Immediately to you it was obvious the name was a bit of fun?
A. Yes.
Q. When, indeed, you mentioned it to other people at a later
stage, their reaction also was to laugh? A. Yes.
Q. Then, when there came a stage, leaving aside laughter and fun
and jokes, when there came a stage when you seriously said,
"What is your real name?" There was no problem about it, he
showed you his real name on his identification cards?
A. Yes.
Q. So that when it came to reality, jokes apart, you wanted to
know, he not only showed it but was able to confirm it?
A. Yes.
Q. Not only that, but is it right to say that he at all times
was someone, as far as you were concerned, easy to recognise?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, when you saw this man, then Commander Nemo
or whatever name, or Mr. Edwards, and you see him here today
you have no difficulty at all in recognising him? A. No.
Q. No attempt at all of disguising himself to you? A. No.
Q. I gather he wore a rather special hat, a trilby? A. Yes.
Q. I think you told us before he had what you considered to be
many crazy ideas? A. Yes.
Q. One of which was to put you lot on Top of the Pops? A. Yes,
that has to be a crazy idea.
Q. Something which obviously, I am sorry to say, had little
chance in reality? A. Definitely.
Q. You all knew that? A. Yes.
Q. You went along with it because it was rather fun? A. Yes.
Q. Indeed, there were a few other such crazy ideas as well that
he mentioned. Wembley Stadium, do you remember that one?
A. Yes, that was a good one; that was my favourite.
Q. Was that when the arrival at Wembley Stadium was going to be
accompanied by laser beams? A. Yes, and the whole activity
(inaudible).
Q. Any other such weird ideas emanate from him? A. Well, he
reckoned he had a cure for AIDS.
Q. He had a cure for AIDS as well? A. Yes.
Q. Anything else that he could do? A. I can't remember
actually.
Q. I suppose you did not take these ideas very seriously?
A. No, not really.
Q. It did not require you to be a private detective or some
special intelligence agency to find out the whole thing was
farcical? A. Well I didn't - no, it didn't.
Q. You realised that yourself. There was one other thing: do
you recognise his idea about a Marilyn Monroe look-alike?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you meet her? A. No.
Q. That was the idea of having someone looking like Marilyn
Monroe and doing well with that. A. Yes.
Q. One thing as it has been raised; you have told us there was a
suggestion The Good Earth was an expensive restaurant and we
have been told about this, and one thing in case anything
turns on it. You were asked you were uneasy in some
apartment or other. A. Yes.
Q. As it is raised I had better deal with it. You mean you
then said, "We would like to leave", and there were no
problems about leaving at all? A. Well, the door was
double locked but they opened it.
Q. There was no question or problem in leaving at all?
A. Well, I mean, not as far as I was concerned. I think the
other girls were a bit ---
Q. The girls were quite sensibly, being two girls - so far as
Panos Koupparis was concerned you were quite happy as far as
he was concerned to see him at hotels, go out for a good
dinner with him and see him in taxi cabs; no problem at all?
A. Right.
Q. But when you found yourself in a flat with two flashy men
you did not know, then the girls were a trifle concerned
things might go wrong? A. Yes.
Q. When you asked Mr. Koupparis to leave the doors were opened
and off you go? A. Yes.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Do you know why the door was double
locked? Were you given any explanation of that? A. I
didn't ask.
MR. BECKMAN: My Lord, I only raised it to deal with it, but
apart from possible prejudice I cannot say what relevance it
has to any issue.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: It probably has not; part of an odd
story, that is all. (To the witness): He had obviously a
lot of extremely odd ideas? A. Yes.
Q. How did he behave otherwise, in ordinary conversation and
paying bills and things? Anything you noticed odd about him?
A. He always paid in cash but that isn't really odd, a lot
of people pay in cash.
Q. You talked about all sorts of things with him, I suppose?
A. Yes.
Q. The only thing I am not clear about is how long you remember
the asociation [sic] with him being. Was it a week or a month or
how long roughly? A. I think it was a couple of months.
Q. That is what the girl said. You confirm that? A. Yes, it
was around that.
MR. BECKMAN: One thing I forgot to ask, Mr. Kindersley. You
remember, apart from going to Heaven, you also went to
Brown's? A. Yes.
Q. When you went to Brown's he was turned into a member I
gather. A. Yes.
Q. Were you present when that happened? A. I can't remember.
Q. You cannot help us directly about the application for
membership? A. I thought he knew the guy that ran it.
Q. You thought he knew the guy that ran it? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that he made out an application form giving the
name Commander Nemo but signing "P. Koupparis"? A. I didn't
know that.
(The witness withdrew)
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