Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume I, Pages 31-42, Thursday 8th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
SOPHY AMI VICTORIA THOMPSON: Sworn
Examined by Mr. Temple
Q. Are you Sophy Ami Victoria Thompson? A. Yes.
Q. Are you working or studying at the moment? A. Neither.
Q. Where are you living? A. In the West End, Leicester Square.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Miss Thompson, it is not easy to hear
you and this court is strange. Those ladies and gentlemen
have to hear you. I know it is not easy, so would you speak
as loudly as you can? A. I am sorry. Irving Street, WC2.
MR. TEMPLE: I want to take you back to April 1987, and amongst
your then contemporaries was there Barney Kindersley?
A. Yes.
Q. Charlotte Cripps? A. Yes.
Q. And Jake Clennell? A. Yes.
Q. During the beginning of April 1987, had the four of you all
been out to a nightclub in the Charing Cross Road? A. Yes.
Q. What time do you think you left? A. Three.
Q. Having left the club, did you then as a group proceed to
walk along the Charing Cross Road? A. Yes.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Did we establish a date?
MR. TEMPLE: No, my Lord, I just said "the beginning of April".
(To the witness): I am not going to ask about a date; I do
not think you will remember. More important, as you were
walking along Charing Cross Road, did anybody come to your
attention? A. Yes.
Q. In what circumstances? A. Well, we were looking in a
computer shop window. Well, there was a man looking in the
computer shop window and Barney, one of my friends, went up
to him and said ---
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Would you start again? It is pretty
difficult to hear you. If you speak a bit slower I think it
will help. There was a man looking at the computer shop
window? A. Yes.
Q. Barney said something to him? A. Yes.
MR. TEMPLE: What was the effect? Do you remember the effect
of what he said? A. Not really, no.
Q. In any event, did that initial comment by Barney, whatever it
may have been, give rise to a conversation which took place
between the man and your group? A. Yes.
Q. Did the man then proceed to invite you, as a group, back to
his hotel? A. Yes.
Q. Did you accept? A. Yes.
Q. How did you get back to the hotel? A. By car.
Q. Was that his car or your car? A. His car.
Q. Later on, having had drinks at the hotel, did you go out for
a drive with him in the car? A. Yes.
Q. Again, when I say "you", is that you and all your friends?
A. Yes.
Q. A matter of detail, can you help with the name of the hotel?
A. The White House.
Q. Is that The White House in Regent's Park? A. Yes, I think
so.
Q. During the course of this meeting, did the man tell you what
his name was? A. I think it might have been - I think it
was this time he told us his name was Commander Nemo.
Q. Did he give you any instruction on how you were to address
him? A. Nemo.
Q. Were you content to do that? A. Yes.
Q. You called him Nemo. After that initial meeting did you
and your friends continue to see him? A. Yes.
Q. What I really want to do - I am not going to ask you about
the detail of each and every meeting, what I am much more
concerned about is a more general indication as to where you
would meet him and I will take you through it in a moment.
The meetings, what took place and his general behaviour to
you is agreed. Let us look at the first general proposition.
Where would you meet him generally as your group? A. He
would usually meet us at the pub in Covent Garden.
Q. What would a typical evening consist of? A. We would
probably go to a hotel, one of the hotels.
Q. For what purpose? A. Drinks.
Q. Having had drinks at the hotels, then where? A. Brown's
Nightclub.
Q. What is Brown's? A. It is a nightclub.
Q. Whereabouts is Brown's? A. Queen Street, I think, Covent
Garden.
Q. During this period of time, would he be generous to you as a
group? A. Yes.
Q. In a sentence, who would pay the bills? A. He would.
Q. Over what period of time was this going on? A. Two or
three months.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Months? A. Yes.
MR. TEMPLE: You met him in April? A. Yes.
Q. You say it had gone on through all of April? A. Yes.
Q. May? A. Yes, probably more two months than three.
Q. Did he ever discuss any business proposition with you, or
potential business proposition? A. There was one time,
there was only me and Jake and we were at The White House.
Q. You and Jake are with this man at The White House?
A. Yes, that was the first time we had met him.
Q. You were going to tell us about the proposed business
proposition. A. Yes, well, business, I don't know - he
said he had plans to take an island and turn it into a
man-made paradise type thing.
Q. Was that particular proposition ever mentioned again, or not?
A. No.
Q. Any other proposition, which concerned you and your friends
more closely? A. Yes.
Q. Which was? A. He wanted us to be a pop group.
Q. As far as you and your friends were concerned, were any one
of you or more than one of you proficient on any musical
instrument? A. No.
Q. None of you? A. No.
Q. Did any of you purport to play an instrument? A. Barney
pretends he can play the bass, but he can't.
Q. You told us that with regard to the island paradise, nothing
more was said about it? A. No.
Q. Here we have a proposition, a possibility of forming you
into a pop group. A. Yes.
Q. Was anything practical done about that? A. He introduced
us to a few people who he thought might be able to help us.
Q. Were they people in the pop music industry? A. One of them
was called James Sparkle and I believe he was something to
do with the music business.
Q. Were you ever given a sound test? A. Yes.
Q. Was that a successful one or a failure? A. Big failure.
Q. I just want you now to deal with one other incident. Do you
remember there came a time when you were in the Churchill
Hotel? A. Yes.
Q. In turn you were introduced to another man? A. Yes.
Q. What did Nemo suggest should take place? A. He said we
should go back with this man to his flat.
Q. You are dropping your voice again. A. Sorry. He said we
should go back to this man's flat with him.
Q. Where was that? A. St. John's Wood.
Q. When Nemo suggested that, to whom was that referring?
A. Barney, Charlotte, Jake and me.
Q. So it was the four of you? A. And Nemo.
Q. Nemo and the man he introduced to you? A. Yes.
Q. The suggestion is that they go back to this man's flat in
St. John's Wood? A. Yes.
Q. Did you do so? A. Yes.
Q. What happened in that flat? A. We had a couple of drinks.
Q. Did you feel ill at ease or at home? A. Me and Charlotte,
the other girl with me, felt isolated from anywhere and felt
uneasy.
Q. Taking matters shortly, did you want to leave and did you do
so? A. Yes.
Q. During the period of time that you and your friends had gone
out with Nemo, did you ever find out whether or not he used
any other name? A. Someone called him Pan and he told us
this was short for Peter Pan, which was another name he was -
a nickname.
Q. Finally, did you ever go to meet his wife? A. Yes.
Q. Was that on a number of occasions or just one occasion?
A. A couple of occasions.
Q. What name would Nemo use when you spoke to him in front of
his wife, or what name would you use to him? A. We would
call him Nemo.
Q. When you called him Nemo was there any reaction one way or
the other from his wife? A. No.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
Q. Can you stand up please? (The defendant stood) You were
asked about the nicknames, but in fact you knew eventually
that his name was Panos Koupparis? A. Yes.
Q. And this is Panos Koupparis? A. Yes.
Q. There is no doubt about that at all and he made no attempt
whatsoever to disguise himself in any way? A. No.
Q. None at all; you always knew - eventually - you first knew
his nicknames then he was Panos Koupparis? A. No.
Q. How did you find that out? A. I cannot actually remember
finding that out until much later on, after we hadn't seen
him for some time.
Q. You were shown a business card, were you not? A. I cannot
really remember that, no.
Q. Would you like to have a look at your statement? A. I
know that is written in my statement but I cannot remember
that.
Q. The statement was taken quite some time ago. A. Well, I
wouldn't like to say I remember it if I cannot remember it,
and I cannot remember it now.
Q. That is right. I think you told the Court on one occasion
you do not have that marvellous a memory. A. No, I don't.
Q. You might have seen a business card? A. Yes, I might have,
but I wouldn't like to say definitely because I cannot
remember.
Q. Can I put it this way: if you had said at the time - you can
see your statement if you wish - that "I found his name was
Panos Koupparis after seeing a business card", presumably,
bearing in mind the fact you have forgotten now, you would
accept what you told the police then was the truth?
A. Right.
Q. So you knew his name then was Panos Koupparis? A. Yes.
Q. Let us go back to what you call nicknames. One of them - he
said when his name Pan was mentioned, "I am also called Peter
Pan"? A. Yes.
Q. Did you find that funny? A. Not really, no.
Q. Commander Nemo; did you find that funny? A. Not that
funny no, not hysterical.
Q. There was a discussion at some time about Jules Verne, do you
remember? Jules Verne, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea,
Commander Nemo, and all that sort of thing? A. Yes.
Q. Was that discussion in the context of his name being
Commander Nemo? A. Yes, I presume so, yes.
Q. Did he ever use the name Digsby to you? That means a dog,
does it not? A. I don't know.
Q. Some people call Digsby in terms of Digsby the dog. A. No,
I don't.
Q. What sort of clothes did he wear? A. Trilby hat, suit,
dark suit, one glove.
Q. Was he playing Peter Pan and Captain Hook? A. I don't
know.
Q. He did not try the crocodile at any time? A. It leaves a
lot to the imagination but ---
Q. He did not take an alarm clock with him? A. No.
Q. He wore one glove from time to time, and did you ever see him
in orange baseball boots? A. I cannot remember.
Q. Any time he rolled up his trousers? A. I cannot remember.
Q. Any other gear he wore which might be unusual, even today?
A. Sunglasses.
Q. Sometimes wore them, sometimes did not? A. Most of the
time wore them.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Most of the time, day or night?
A. Yes, both.
MR. BECKMAN: Quite clear to you at any rate these were - you
used the word "nicknames", but quite clear these names were
not his real names, Commander Nemo? A. I didn't give it
much thought, but obviously I presumed they were not his real
name.
Q. It did not take much intelligence to realise they were not
his real names? A. Yes.
MR. BECKMAN: I wonder if you could see Exhibit 15, page 62A.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: It is not my page 62, what is it?
MR. BECKMAN: An application for Brown's, page 170. (Handed to
the witness) (To the witness): Were you the person - whose
suggestion was it that you went to Brown's the first time?
A. I cannot remember.
Q. Was it one of yourself or one of your friends probably?
A. Probably.
Q. Brown's was probably a place you liked to go so when he said
where to go you said, "Brown's"? A. Yes, probably.
Q. When you got there presumably what happened was he would
have to be made a member in order to take you in and pay?
A. Well, I can get in free there anyway so I cannot remember
any of this.
Q. You probably have a chance to get in and he did not if you
will forgive me, but normally if you become a member how much
do you pay, do you know? A. I wouldn't know, a lot.
Q. If a new member comes in they have to pay something?
A. Yes.
Q. This, on the face of it, is an application form for Brown's?
That is an application form for Brown's? A. Hm hm.
Q. Presumably the situation is you and your friends like the
place, he suggested going somewhere and when he got there he
was made a member? A. Right.
Q. Would you agree with this: looking at that document, clearly
he effectively used the name Commander or Comm. Nemo.
A. Yes.
Q. It is also equally clear, if you look further down, he was
signing in the name P. Koupparis? A. Yes.
Q. So that as far as you are concerned, if you looked at that
at the time, it was immediately clear that there were two
totally different names there? A. Yes.
Q. He spoke about various different schemes whilst you were with
him, lots and lots of them? A. Yes.
Q. Again if I may quote something, I believe you said before you
found some of these ideas of his a bit on the far side.
A. Yes.
Q. Scatterbrained sometimes as well? A. Yes, I suppose so.
Q. Sometimes they would seem to be good ideas and sometimes
seem to be rather far-fetched? A. Yes.
Q. Let us, for example, take the paradise island, this paradise
for mankind; what was he going to do with that? A. As I
said, turn it into a man-made paradise.
Q. What was man going to make of it? A. Self-cleaning beaches
and things like that.
Q. Were these beaches going to clean themselves? A. I wasn't
listening so I can't remember.
Q. These ideas were transparently silly? A. Yes.
Q. What other ideas do you recall he had? A. I can't remember
any other.
Q. Did you find them funny, some of the ideas? A. Not really.
Q. Much more silly than funny? A. More silly than funny.
Q. What else did he mention? I suppose you thought that the
idea of your becoming a pop group was silly or funny, or
both? A. Funny.
Q. Perhaps not all of us like pop music but you have heard some
groups? A. Yes.
Q. Some of them used to do a sound rather than music? A. Yes.
Q. Do you think the four of you could have made a sound that
might have appealed to somebody? A. It would appeal to
somebody but they would have to be deaf, I would imagine.
Q. Basically it was a ridiculous idea? A. Yes.
Q. What about AIDS, or again had you stopped listening? A. I
vaguely remember him saying something about discovering a
cure for AIDS and making a lot of money out of it.
Q. Do you know what this cure was? A. No.
Q. As you have told us, there were numerous plans but you did
not find them funny and certainly they were not serious as
far as you were concerned? A. Yes.
Q. I suppose the man himself, as far as you were concerned, was
pleasant enough and amusing enough for you to go out with him
frequently? A. Yes.
Q. You never had any problems with him either? A. No.
Q. Indeed, on the occasion when you and your friend felt
uncomfortable in this other man's flat and you wanted to go,
there was no problem at all about leaving? A. No.
Q. I think also it is right one occasion, when calling into your
premises, he was quite happy to meet your parents but
unfortunately your parents were not there and you (sic) never
met them? A. Can you repeat the question?
Q. There was one occasion when he wanted to meet your parents
but in fact never did? A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. I think there is only one other matter I want to ask you
about. That is perhaps to remind you again in your first
statement you have said - you can look at it if you like -
the way you met him was when he was looking in the computer
window and one of your fellows said, "You can get radon
poisoning from looking at those". A. Yes, that's right.
Q. You remember it now? A. Yes.
Q. In other words, it was a joke? A. Yes, it was supposed to
be.
Q. Your association with Commander Nemo started as a joke?
A. Yes.
Q. Did it ever move out of being a joke as far as you are
concerned? A. No, not really.
(The witness withdrew)
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