Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume I, Pages 23-31, Thursday 8th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
DANIEL SEAN TUFFIN: Sworn
Examined by Mr. Temple
Q. Is your name Daniel Sean Tuffin? A. Yes.
Q. Do you still own Catford Couriers? A. Yes.
Q. For how long have you owned the company? A. Approximately
five years.
Q. Where are you based? A. At the rear of 125 Catford Hill.
Q. I think you have a brother Christopher. A. Yes.
Q. Does he assist you in the running of the company? A. Yes.
Q. In a sentence or two, what is the principal nature of the
company's business? A. Basically to deliver documents and
small consignments through London and the Home Counties
mainly on a motor cycle.
Q. Was one of your couriers working for you in April 1987 a
Barry Traquair? Does he still work for you? A. No, he
does not.
Q. Have you lost contact with him? A. Yes.
Q. I want to ask you some details of Tuesday, 7th April 1987; is
the position that you made a statement to the police on
8th April, and you have had the opportunity to refresh your
memory from it before coming into court? A. Yes, I have.
Q. During the course of the morning of 7th April 1987, did you
receive a particular 'phone call from a male? A. Yes.
Q. What did he want of you? A. He asked us to deliver a
document up to the West End for him.
Q. Did he say from where he was speaking? A. As far as I can
remember he said he was speaking from an address in Peckham
but he didn't know the actual address because he was staying
with friends.
Q. At this early stage did he give you any further indication
as to the address in the West End? A. I cannot remember,
to be honest.
Q. At any rate, we have the position where he was asking you to
run up a parcel to the West End and he is not clear as to
from where he is speaking? A. That is correct.
Q. Did he give you any further information as to where the rider
might meet him? A. I think originally he was going to
leave the parcel with Roy Moore of Moore Printcraft, but the
biker picking up from there had already been and gone and
that wasn't possible, so he could arrange to meet the rider
at East Dulwich Station.
Q. Summarising the position, were you anxious or were you
concerned to get this business, or not? A. It sounded to
me, to be honest with you, like a lot of aggravation, having
to meet someone outside the station; you can miss them or
whatever; you have no way of getting in touch with them
afterwards.
Q. As this business was not a particularly attractive
proposition, did you try and put the man off? A. Yes, I
said it might be a couple of hours or something like that.
Q. Did that deter him? A. At that point he said he could
bring it into our office if that was more convenient.
Q. Was the conversation left on that basis? A. Yes, I gave
him some instructions how to get there and he said he would
come up.
Q. Did you at this stage give an indication of what the cost
would be? A. Yes, I believe I would have given him a
quote on it.
Q. Which would be roughly? A. Seven pounds.
Q. At half past twelve on 7th April, you were in the office?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. A man enters? A. Yes.
Q. Description: first of all nationality? A. Foreign looking,
sort of Mediterranean, that kind of idea.
MR. TEMPLE: My Lord, I am told there is no dispute. (To the
witness): I need not trouble you with a description,
Mr. Tuffin.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Do you recognise the gentleman sitting
there (indicating)? A. I couldn't, to be honest with you,
it is a long time ago.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Yes, of course it is.
MR. TEMPLE: I think identity is not in dispute. I just want
you to cover a little bit about the dress. Was he wearing
glasses? A. Dark glasses.
Q. What about his head? A. He had a large brimmed black hat
on.
Q. A raincoat? A. Yes, a light coloured mac as far as I can
remember.
Q. What about footwear? A. He had bright orange baseball
boots on I think.
Q. Anything on his hands? A. Gloves, leather gloves. I
thought they were brown, I'm not sure though.
Q. Did he hand you anything, and if so, what? A. He handed
me an A4 sized envelope with an address on it in the West
End.
Q. Can you remember the precise address? A. It was the
Cypriot High Commission, Park Street, I cannot remember what
number.
Q. What did he want you to do? A. He asked us if we could
deliver it to the Commissioner or the signee in person. I
said it wasn't always possible at that sort of place; you
cannot always get security clearance to get that far.
Q. Were you happy to undertake his instructions? In other
words, your company would deliver the envelope for him?
A. Yes.
Q. Only one other detail, generally speaking: did you, in your
capacity of running the company, want to know how to get in
touch with the customer? A. Yes.
Q. In case things went wrong? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask such a question of this defendant? A. Yes.
Q. What was the gist of his answer? A. He said he had to
catch a flight from Heathrow, therefore I couldn't get in
touch with him. He would call me to check everything was
all right.
Q. As far as you were concerned, did you give the envelope to
Barry Traquair to deal with? A. Yes.
Q. Just to conclude the chronology of events, you told us you
had been given an indication that the man would call again to
check? A. Yes.
Q. Was there such a call? A. Yes, there were two.
Q. When he rang the first time, what was the gist of the
conversation? A. He asked me had it been delivered to the
signee and I said I wasn't sure at this stage if it had or
not.
Q. The second call? A. At that stage I said it had been
delivered but there had been problems. I don't think it had
got to the signee, it had been accepted there.
Q. That really brought to a close your direct involvement?
A. Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
Q. The procedure that you have when you go along, do you get
people to sign for the consignment? A. Yes, we do.
Q. Do you give any document to the people that you pick up, that
you deliver to? A. Sorry, I didn't understand.
Q. Do you give over a copy or just take a signature? A. To
who?
Q. To who you are delivering to. A. No, just take a signature.
Q. Anyone making a delivery on your behalf is asked by the
signee, "Who are you from?" He will immediately say,
"Catford Couriers". A. Yes.
Q. And not only that, he is probably supplied with business
cards in case you can do more business? A. Yes, although
we wouldn't be after business from the West End; it isn't our
area.
Q. But generally speaking, that is your instruction? A. Yes.
Q. Although you are not after business, if it was good enough
you would not mind? A. It wouldn't be suitable, to be
honest.
Q. If he identified himself we could easily get back to Catford
Couriers? A. Yes.
Q. Let us go back from there to Catford Couriers. Stand up,
Mr. Koupparis. (The defendant stood) This man admits
being the man there, but what I would like to know from you
is this: do you have any difficulty yourself, looking at
him, saying to yourself, "Yes, it seems it is the man"?
A. To be honest with you, it was a couple of years ago and
he was only in the office a couple of minutes and he had
sunglasses on, so I couldn't look at him and say, "Yes, this
is him".
Q. Do sit down. (The defendant resumed his seat) The man who
was there, your first impression was you would know him again
if you saw him sooner? A. Only if he was dressed that way.
Q. You would have no difficulty, if he was dressed in that way,
identifying him soon thereafter? A. I would think so but
obviously, the fact someone is wearing dark glasses and a big
hat and raincoat, you haven't got a lot to go on, have you?
Q. If you saw someone coming along the road with a big hat and
baseball boots you would remember him again? A. Yes.
Q. My Lord, I am going to mention one little bit of hearsay to
save the prosecution calling a witness they are having
difficulties with. (To the witness): What he was wearing,
the hat itself, it is the sort of hat you see often nowadays?
A. No.
Q. The sort of hat you have to go and see old American detective
things to see more of these trilbies? A. It was not
actually a trilby, as far as I can remember, it was a more
wider brimmed hat, not a popular kind of hat at all.
Q. Stood out quite a bit, then? A. Yes, I would think so.
Q. He was wearing also, as well as the hat and the dark glasses,
he was wearing baseball boots? A. That is correct.
Q. A bit unusual, was it not? A. Yes, but there is a lot of
strange dressing people about these days.
Q. Yes, there are. Baseball boots, I take it, are those boots
that tie up fairly high? A. Yes.
Q. Your brother - and here I mention hearsay - tells us not
only were there baseball boots but they were bright orange.
A. Yes.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: He told us that himself. The evidence
was they were orange baseball boots.
MR. BECKMAN: I am obliged. (To the witness): Bright orange as
well? A. Yes.
Q. Not only did we have a hat, glasses and bright orange boots,
but your brother recalls he had his trousers rolled up.
A. I didn't recall that, but certainly his boots were very
noticeable.
Q. I gather your brother is away on business or holiday; he has
some problems? A. Yes.
Q. Can I ask you this: if your brother has told anyone at any
stage - and I can tell you he has - that he could see the
baseball boots well because the trousers were rolled up, you
would not disagree with that? A. I wouldn't disagree with
it, no.
Q. Afterwards I believe you had a little laugh about the whole
thing anyway. A. I don't remember. This question was put
to me before and I don't remember particularly we were
laughing about that.
Q. Your brother said - I am going to say it again - you had a
bit of a laugh. You would not disagree with that if he said
so? A. No, quite possibly.
Q. Were you not of the view you thought the incident was a bit
like a spy spoof thriller? A. I don't think I particularly
thought that, to be honest.
Q. You did not say that - can I ask you this - I can put it
this way: you have given evidence before? A. Yes.
Q. And before, when you gave evidence on a previous occasion, in
fact you did say yes, it was or something like a spy spoof.
A. I don't remember saying that, to be honest.
Q. Can I put it another way to you: whether you said it or did
not say it, it was exactly what it was like? A. It could
be interpreted that way.
Q. When you say "spy spoof", you mean jokey things on spies,
intelligence and counter-intelligence; that sort of thing?
A. I suppose so, but really you are suggesting that to me; I
am saying that is possibly what we thought.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: It sounds like that to me. What did you
think? It is probably the easiest way of telling the jury,
not for Mr. Beckman or your brother's words. What did you
think? Did you think it was odd or it was normal? A. I
did - to be honest, I thought the chap was dressed rather
strangely, but there are a lot of people about who do dress
like that, students, people like that.
MR. BECKMAN: Some people even wear wigs.
RE-EXAMINED BY MR. TEMPLE
Q. If you were asked, at the conclusion of Tuesday, 7th April
1987, "Where could you contact the man who gave you the
envelope?" would you be able to answer? A. I am sorry,
could you repeat that?
Q. If you were to be asked, "How can someone contact the man who
gave you the envelope?" would you be able to do it? A. No.
(The witness withdrew)
MR. BECKMAN: May he not be released?
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Do you want to ask more questions?
(Pause)
MR. BECKMAN: My learned friend has told me what I am looking
for; it is not necessary.
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