Ref: A00-300995 Case No. 871626 Macpherson II
Volume I, Pages 5-13, Thursday 8th June, 1989
(In the presence of the jury)
TINA ROSE HOLMES: Sworn
Examined by Mr. Temple
Q. Is your name Tina Rose Holmes? A. Yes.
Q. Where are you presently working? A. Moore Printcraft.
Q. Have you been working at Moore Printcraft for some
considerable time? A. About four and a half years.
Q. We know that their premises are at 53 Grove Vale, south east
London. A. Yes.
Q. I want to take you back to Monday, 6th April 1987. Were you
working at Moore Printcraft during the course of the morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Between half past nine and half past ten that morning, did
two men arrive at the premises? A. Yes.
Q. Man No. 1, I just want to ask you first of all about his
nationality. A. Italian, Greek.
MR. TEMPLE: I pause there to observe that I do not anticipate
there to be any dispute other than that man is the defendant,
Panos Koupparis.
MR. BECKMAN: Absolutely right. I see no problem at all about
identity and indeed, in most of the cases my learned friend
can lead if the witnesses have difficulty.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: Mr. Beckman, I will leave it entirely to
you, with your experience, to liaise with Mr. Temple about
that. Thank you very much. (To the witness): Miss Holmes,
you see Mr. Koupparis sitting there (indicating)? A. Yes.
Q. Is that the man or is that like the man who came? A. Yes.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: We understand, ladies and gentlemen,
that there is no dispute but that it was him.
MR. TEMPLE: And the other man with him - take it shortly - age
group? A. Early twenties.
Q. What nationality did you consider him to be? A. English.
Q. Did Mr. Koupparis, the, in your view, Italian looking man,
have a request to make of you? A. Some photocopies.
Q. What did he want photocopying? A. Three items; the first
item a computer magazine.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: This is a page from a computer magazine?
A. Yes.
MR. TEMPLE: Secondly? A. Computer print-out sheets.
Q. With regard to the computer print-out sheets, how many
sheets? A. About 15.
Q. Who was it who actually carried out the copying of these 15
or so sheets? A. Man No. 1 did the first one.
Q. That is the Italian man? A. Yes. He didn't want me to see
what was on the sheets, and then I continued through the
rest.
Q. That is all I want to ask you about these 15 sheets. After
you had copied the 15 or so sheets for him, were you then
given a letter? A. Yes.
Q. Did you notice anything about the construction or design of
the letter? A. The letter had a round logo on the top.
Q. I would like you to look at page 359 of the exhibit bundle.
(Handed to the witness) You see the logo there on the top
left hand corner? A. Yes.
Q. How did that compare with the letter which he gave you?
A. Similar.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: And a logo like that, roughly?
A. Similar, yes.
MR. TEMPLE: What did he want you to do? A. He wanted to
photocopy about five copies and just leave the logo on the
paper so you cover the rest of the letter.
Q. In other words, all you would produce would be the logo?
A. Yes.
Q. Look at page 157. Would that be, as it were, the end result
of what you gave him? A. Yes.
Q. Just remind us again, how many copies of the logo did he
want? A. Five.
Q. We have covered the photocopying of the computer print-out
and we have covered the photocopying of the logo. Did he
make a further request of you with regard to typing?
A. Yes, he asked if I knew anybody local to do some typing
for him.
Q. Were you able to assist him? A. Yes, I give him a
telephone number.
Q. Did you give him an address or a telephone number? A. Just
a telephone number.
Q. Of someone you thought could assist him? A. Yes.
Q. A very small point, were any purchases made by the Italian
man? A. Some envelopes.
Q. Anything else? A. Some ink eraser.
Q. That first visit, you have confirmed, took place in the
morning of the 6th. A. Yes.
Q. On the afternoon of that same day, shortly before four
o'clock, were you preparing to leave the premises? A. Yes.
Q. Was there a telephone call? A. Yes.
Q. Did you recognise the caller? A. Yes.
Q. As being? A. Man No. 1.
Q. What did he want? A. He couldn't get no reply from the
telephone number I gave him.
Q. For the typing? A. Yes, and he asked if I would do it for
him the following day.
Q. Were you agreeable? A. Yes.
Q. Did you indicate to him that he could come along in the
morning of the next day? A. Yes.
Q. That in turn leads us to Tuesday, 7th April. At about ten
o'clock that morning did you have occasion to go to the
office? A. Yes.
Q. Is the office on the ground floor or on the first floor?
A. First floor.
Q. Up until that time, up until the time you were going up to
the office on the first floor, had you seen the Italian man?
A. He was sitting in our office.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: I did not hear that. A. He was sitting
in our office.
MR. TEMPLE: Is that office on the first floor? A. Yes.
Q. Was that the first time you had seen him that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he doing? A. Using the typewriter.
Q. Was there anybody else in the office with him? A. Roy.
Q. "Roy" is a reference to who? A. My step-father, Mr. Moore.
Q. Did the Italian man have any clothing near him or with him?
A. I only noticed a hat and some sunglasses, and maybe a
briefcase.
Q. Did you have occasion or did you have the opportunity to
notice anything about any paper which was in the typewriter?
A. It was the same as I photocopied the day before.
Q. Was that a reference to the photocopying of the computer
print-out sheets or the letter? A. The logo paper.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: It was one of the letter sheets?
A. Yes.
Q. Apart from being able to recognise one of the logo sheets,
were you in a position to see what was being typed on it?
A. He was typing but I couldn't see what was being put.
Q. Can you tell us anything about his expertise of typing? In
other words, was it fluent typing or one finger? A. Using
one finger on each hand.
Q. Digressing slightly, you have come up to the office and you
see the Italian man typing on the logo paper; what was your
purpose in coming up to the office? A. To make a telephone
call.
Q. To? A. Catford Couriers.
Q. Was the man typing, the Italian man, able to hear what you
were saying? A. Yes.
Q. Was the upshot of it that you wanted a despatch rider service
but you could not get through? A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Did you then turn to Mr. Moore and ask him if he could try to
get a rider to deliver a package? A. Yes.
Q. Having made the telephone call, did you then go out of the
office or stay in the office? A. Went downstairs out of
the office.
Q. Did you see the Italian man again that day? A. Yes.
Q. Where? A. In the shop.
Q. In what circumstances? A. He came in to ask where Catford
Hill was.
Q. Were you able to tell him? A. Yes.
Q. When you were directing him to Catford Hill, was any comment
made, either by you or the Italian man? A. I did say that
Catford Couriers were in Catford Hill.
MR. JUSTICE MACPHERSON: "Carriers" or "Couriers"?
A. "Couriers."
MR. TEMPLE: You made the comment, "That's where Catford Couriers
are"? A. Yes.
Q. Did he react to that in any way? A. He said, "That's who
I want".
Q. In fact, just to remind us, Catford Couriers were the people
you 'phoned up earlier on that day, which he was in a
position to hear in the office? A. Yes.
Q. One or two other subsidiary matters: was any comment
expressed by Mr. Moore with regard to the man's typewriting
ability? A. "All men can type with one finger on one
hand."
Q. Did that lead to any reaction by the Italian man who was
doing the typing? A. All he said was, "I'm composing what
I am writing as I am going along".
Q. One final reference to the document bundle for you; would
you look at page 172 please. My Lord, this document was
found at Strickland Court. (To the witness): Is that a
receipt from Printcraft in respect of photocopying, ink
eradicator and envelopes? A. Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BECKMAN
Q. Mr. Koupparis, would you be kind enough to stand up for a
moment? (The defendant stood) (To the witness):
Miss Holmes, you do not have any difficulty in identifying
him or remembering him, do you? A. No.
Q. Please sit down, thank you. (The defendant resumed his seat)
(To the witness): In other words, as far as you were
concerned, the man who came in was making no attempt to
disguise himself? A. No.
Q. In addition to that, there were at least two items about his
clothing or wearing apparel that made him fairly outstanding?
A. Nothing outstanding, no.
Q. What about dark glasses, or do you see a lot of people
wearing dark glasses? A. He had occasions of wearing them,
but he did take them off.
Q. They helped to make him a bit different to most in the sense
you could pick him out more easily I suppose? A. Yes,
maybe.
Q. What sort of hat was it? Was it one of those big ones?
A. Black, sort of like a bowler hat but squashed in the
middle.
Q. And with a sort of wider brim? A. Yes.
Q. I know one thinks of floppy disks, but a floppier hat than a
bowler hat? A. Yes.
Q. That again was sufficiently unusual to enable you to sort of
pick him out and remember him easily? A. Not unusual.
Q. Do you see many trilby hats at Moore and Company? A. No,
I don't take much notice normally.
Q. The other thing he was wearing on one occasion; I think you
referred in your statement to him wearing a light green
raincoat. A. Yes.
Q. That raincoat, was it a fairly ordinary raincoat or ---
A. Ordinary, yes.
Q. I think there is only one other matter I want to ask you and
that is this: my learned friend referred you to the invoice
which referred to the three itmes [sic] he bought or had done and
had to pay for. There was something else as well, was there
not? A. Some thimbles, yes.
Q. On the spur of the moment he bought three thimbles, did he
not, and almost forgot to pay for them? A. Yes.
Q. You had to remind him and bring him back and he paid for
them? A. Yes.
(The witness withdrew)
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